What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

105mm How bag Charges

C

Cannoncocker155mm

Well-Known Member
While sorting through some stuff deciding what to sell and what to keep I came across a number of 105mm Howitzer bag charges and they are all diffrent shapes and sizes unlike the 155mm items I have which are all the same shap, can anyone explain why the diffirent sizes and shapes

See below

numbers 2 3 4 5 6 7, DUMMY CHG, INCREMENT, ZONE, PDR INERT, 105 MM H







 

Attachments

  • forsale2014045_zpscd519227.jpg
    forsale2014045_zpscd519227.jpg
    111.1 KB · Views: 5
  • forsale2014046_zps57472711.jpg
    forsale2014046_zps57472711.jpg
    143.6 KB · Views: 5
  • forsale2014047_zps7c9b626f.jpg
    forsale2014047_zps7c9b626f.jpg
    126.4 KB · Views: 6
  • forsale2014049_zps73d6d738.jpg
    forsale2014049_zps73d6d738.jpg
    155.9 KB · Views: 4
Last edited by a moderator:
You certainly have a selection!
I think the ones marked `dummy/inert` are drill/training bags.
The ones just marked `inert` are either the same or maybe for the firing of inert projectiles?
As to incremental - wasnt this the loading order for the charge firing sequence?
Namely 1 being at the base & so up from there?
The ones joined together by cord make it a bit more idiot proof! Load No 1 first & so forth.
The one marked XM 103 is interesting as could the XM be for experimental?
 
Yes i thought anything with XM was experimental and yes your right about the order they are loaded in but just very suprised about the diffirent shapes and sizes
 
I suppose as long as its a good bang the shape is irrelevant!!?
Sorry, silly jokes aside, I would take it that different contractors would bag according to load - shape of bag/charge being irrelevant?
Round would appear to be the more popular & if it is the same diameter as the case then that makes sense.
 
Since no one really explained it, Howitzer and Mortar ammo arrives at the firing location with a full set of powder increments to get the longest range out of the cannon. With mortars, the gunner varies the range by angling the tube and removing mortar increments (either bags, pieces, or containers). 105 Howitzers are the only ones to use a cartridge case, so the case comes with a full set of bags, and each one has a sequential number on it. The bags are tied together with a string. When the gunner wants to reduce the charge, he pulls on the top bag, pulling the string of them out of the case, and he cuts off the number of bags to shorten the range. He then sets the projo into the case and fires the round.
 
The different charges are for achieving different ranges. If you are firing at maximum range you use all the bags. To achieve ranges between min and max range you remove bags.

The gunners refer to a charts to tell them what to use. With an "M" or "XM" prefix it sounds like your bags are American.
 
that reddish color on the bags can also be a indication of the propellant going bad. When double base propellants go sour, the stabilizer can no longer absorb the nitric acid that is being release, so a red color starts showing up on close by things. Also as the propellant goes bad it starts to heat up and if there is nothing to dissipate that heat - you get a nice fire ball. The accidents here in the states with bad propellant have resulted in some nice earth covered magazines being split open.
 
weberoed said:
that reddish color on the bags can also be a indication of the propellant going bad. When double base propellants go sour, the stabilizer can no longer absorb the nitric acid that is being release, so a red color starts showing up on close by things. Also as the propellant goes bad it starts to heat up and if there is nothing to dissipate that heat - you get a nice fire ball. The accidents here in the states with bad propellant have resulted in some nice earth covered magazines being split open.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replys, I know how they are used etc but what I dont get is why isnt there a standard shape or size, after all they are all for the 105, can't be used for anything else

Thanks for that weberoed, i did wonder what the marks were on the bags, that it explains it :)
 
Here I expose the bag number 1 shot 105 H silk, like most I know.
They are for projectiles of guns 105 M1 105/14 105/26 used in Spain


saquete-1.png
 
The reason for the different shapes is because of the length of the primer in the cartridge case. Number 1 is packed around the primer. Then numbers 2 to 6 are packed to the side of the primer and number 7 sits on top of the primer, just beneath the base of the projectile. The rusty looking bags are designed for firing with the older model of 105mm...mostly used in WW2. This cartridge case used a much shorter primer and the bags used were more uniform in shape... as can be seen. They were stacked on top of the primer with sometimes the bottom one being secured by a bronze clip, which often left the barrel with the projectile. Sorry, I just have to say it...."the ones marked INERT only are for firing INERT projectiles" ?????? If they are inert they can't be fired at all. Surely..... They are in reality for use in either DRILL rounds or for display pieces, classroom instruction etc. The unwanted bags are left out of the case when the complete round is on the loading tray, but still attached by their string. The Number 1 of the gun is responsible for checking the correct number of bags being used and then pulls and breaks the string and discards the unused bags for later destruction.
 
following on from flak18s post an illustration showing how the bags are positioned
 

Attachments

  • drill 105mm.jpg
    drill 105mm.jpg
    102.5 KB · Views: 21
flak18 said:
The reason for the different shapes is because of the length of the primer in the cartridge case. Number 1 is packed around the primer. Then numbers 2 to 6 are packed to the side of the primer and number 7 sits on top of the primer, just beneath the base of the projectile. The rusty looking bags are designed for firing with the older model of 105mm...mostly used in WW2. This cartridge case used a much shorter primer and the bags used were more uniform in shape... as can be seen. They were stacked on top of the primer with sometimes the bottom one being secured by a bronze clip, which often left the barrel with the projectile. Sorry, I just have to say it...."the ones marked INERT only are for firing INERT projectiles" ?????? If they are inert they can't be fired at all. Surely..... They are in reality for use in either DRILL rounds or for display pieces, classroom instruction etc. The unwanted bags are left out of the case when the complete round is on the loading tray, but still attached by their string. The Number 1 of the gun is responsible for checking the correct number of bags being used and then pulls and breaks the string and discards the unused bags for later destruction.
Click to expand...

That’s the best explanation I could ever hope for, fantastic, thisis the sort of thing that makes this forum great.

THANK YOU
 
First, these are for US pattern 105mm How, L118 uses a completely different system, the Swedes used another and I assume the WW2 German was different again.

The Gunners do not use charts to look up the charge. The Bty CP (or FDC in US) calculates the firing data (bearing or deflection/switch; elevation or range & angle of sight; shell type and fuze and charge to be used) all this is ordered to the guns in the battery.

With the US pattern round the normal practice was to pull out the unwanted bags, reseat the shell and snap the string after the No 1 (US Crew Chief) had checked that the correct bags had been removed. The unused bags are periodically destroyed by burning them. With the US 105 all bags where the same colour (whitish or yellow), for other 105 ammo the UK uses a different colour bag for each increment, which made it easier to quickly check that the correct bags have been removed.

Some of the bags illustrated above do seem a bit odd, I've never come across round bags (and I've used 105 ammo made in various countries), always square or rectangular depending on the increment size, and the connecting strings attached to the top corners. And these strings are thin enough to be easily snapped.
 
Thank you for more information, like you ive seen most of them but not the round bags. The German bags Ive seen are very simular to the US bags i have on here that are stained.

Thanks again
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top