.303 Vickers HMG

[LCplCombat]

I'm trying to track down exactly which box .303 Vickers MG rounds were issued in but first I need to know which round it used. I've looked on the http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/ site but I cant find an answer.

Am I correct in assuming Vickers HMG used the .303 mkVIIIZ round and not the .303 mkVII? This would be the weapon used by Heavy Weapons Companies in British and Commonwealth Infantry Battalions.

As I understand it the mkVIIIZ was nitrocelulose (the Z) and enabled a longer range but caused excessive barrelwear if used in the No 4 rifle.

If I am correct in my assumption, what weapon used the mkVII in belts?

 

[Tony Williams]

The Mk VIII.z was supposed to be only used in the Vickers gun; it was loaded to a higher velocity and pressure than the Mk VII, and the bullet was also boat-tailed for extra range (which was the whole purpose of introducing it). The Mk VIII.z could be used in other guns in an emergency, but regular use was not recommended.

The .303 Browning aircraft gun used Mk VII ball, I believe, as well as the Mk IV incendiary/tracer, Mk VI and Mk VII incendiaries and Mk VII.W AP.

The Vickers did of course use the Mk VII before the Mk VIII.z was introduced. The sights needed to be changed with the ammo type.

 

[GI Zhou]

From memory, Vickers machine guns that used Mk VIIIz were banned from using Mk VII ammunition. i was told this was due to different barrel waer but teh different sights makes more sense. At 300m, if Mk VII was all that was available, It would have been used. Indirect fire would be a problem but not direct fire - just follow the tracer.

 

[TimG]

Here you are-

The following instructions regarding use of these various types of .303-in. S.A.A will be strictly enforced-

a) .303-in Vickers machine guns in machine gun battalions.
i) Mk. 8Z only to be used
ii) Mixed belts of Mk. 8Z and tracer must NOT be used
iii) Any barrel which has fired Mk. 7 or .303-in. tracer must NOT be used for firing Mk. 8Z.
iv) Barrel life for Mk. 8Z is 10,000 rounds.

b) .303-in Vickers machine guns in A.F.V.
Here the overhead fire problem is not considered: the range is usually less than is the case with ground machine guns. Tracer is required as an aid to fire control, and prolonged fire programmes are not visulized. Special mixed belts of Mk. 8Z and .303-in. tracer are provided and are clearly marked for A.F.Vs. only. The reduced life of barrels is accepted.

c) Light machine guns*
Mk. 8Z being Neonite loaded gives a small flash at night. When the Bren gun is being used for some special purpose at night, e.g. on a patrol, it may be desirable to make use of Mk. 8Z in order to lessen the flash.

d) Rifles*
Mk. 8Z S.A.A. will not be used in rifles except as in the case of the Bren gun (see c) above), if necessity should arise.

* Although the use of Mk. 7 and kindred types of cordite loads, flat based, bulleted, ammunition reduces Mk. 8Z barrel life, the reveres is not the case. No deleterious effects will therefore be produced by the occasional and restricted use of Mk. 8Z ammunition in these weapons for the purposes indicated above.

Regards

TimG

 

[TonyE]

Vickers

I presume that your question relates to Vickers guns in WW2 and later, as the Mark VIIIz ball round was not introduced until 1938. In WWI the Vickers only had the Mark VII and VIIz ammunition.

Although the sights needed to be changed, it was the mixture of using cordite and nitro cellulose propellants that were the reason for the instructions in Pamphlet 11 that TimG posted.

To return to your original question, in WWI Vickers ammunition was issued to the guns either in paper bundles of ten rounds or boxes of, usually, 48 rounds. Gunners were expected to load their own belts using the belting machines issued to each detachment and it was only very late in the war that factory belted ammunition was issued.

By WWII, pre belted ammunition was the norm and the stripless belts were issued in the following packaging:
Mark VII and VIIz
Box ASA H.15 500 rounds in 2 belts of 250 rounds
Box ASA H.26 500 rounds in 2 belts of 250 rounds
Box ASA H.29 500 rounds in 2 belts of 250 rounds

Mark VIIz
Box ASA H.29 500 rounds in 2 belts of 250 rounds

By about 1944 the "universal" H.50 metal crate had been introduced and belts were issued as follows:

1 belt of 250 rounds in a sealed metal tin H.52
1 H.52 inside a wooden liner H.51
2 H.51 inside an H.50 crate

Regards
TonyE

 

[LCplCombat]

By about 1944 the "universal" H.50 metal crate had been introduced and belts were issued as follows:

1 belt of 250 rounds in a sealed metal tin H.52
1 H.52 inside a wooden liner H.51
2 H.51 inside an H.50 crate

Regards
TonyE

This is the reason I'm asking. I want to find a picture or an example of an H.51/H.50 that has mkVIIIz markings on it but I wanted to make sure what I was looking for was correct. I have seen posts on other forums where posters have been told that Vickers HMG in the ground roll (i don't know what mk it is ) used .303 mkVII in belts of 250 and show H.51 boxes.

Here is an example from the VickersMachineGun website:

I have a friend who reenacts the Middelsex Regiment and they have a Vickers but use an H.51 marked as Bandolier :crossedlips:

Tony, do you have a reference for the introduction date of the H.50/H.51 bx? The only one I have is dated 1944 and only mentions it in passing as being part of the new "Jungle Pack"

 

[TonyE]

Vickers

No, sorry, I do not have the LoC dates to hand for the introduction of the new "jungle" packaging but it was sometime in 1944. One of my Pamphlet 11 editions is dated February 1945 and it says the "recently introduced" jungle packaging will "probably become universal".

Here are the pictures of the H50,51 and 52 for the Mark 8z round, Remember that before January 1945 it would have been printed in Roman numerals as "VIIIz".

I nicked the scans from Dolf Goldsmith's Vickers book, "The Grand Old Lady of No Man's Land", but since I did the ammo drawings for him in that book I am sure he will not mind!

Regards
TonyE

 

[bill99jt]

RMCS Shrivenham still had a firing Vickers, in 1990, used to demonstrate principles to the gun design courses. The Ammunition came in H50/H51 containers & was mostly Mk7 of indian manufacture. We were told it was bought for the Army Cadets who had No 4 rifles up until the late 1980s.

 

[TonyE]

Cadet issue

I am not sure about that, as the purchases for the cadets in the 1980s after British .303 stocks had been exhausted were from the Greek Pwder Company.

We purchased both ball and blank. They were headstamped "HXP date" and were known as Ball L1A1 and Blank L10A1 in British service. I suspect the Indian Mark VII, if that is what it was, was brought in for another purpose.

I am due to visit Shrivenham again shortly, so I will ask the guys in the Small Arms Wing about it.

Regards
TonyE