7.62 nato & 6.5mm experimental

[smle2009]

Hi to all,
Turned up a couple of experimental rounds the other day that has me stumped, the first is marked up as 7.62mm Nato experimental,it has a alloy? case,no headstamp. But the case lenght is wrong for a 7.62mm NATO,case length is 47mm compared with the NATO 7.62 51mm case length!
The other round is a 6.5mm manufactured by Western Cartridge Company,headstamped WCC 53,this one was just marked up 6.5mm experimental.
Both rounds photo'd with a 7.62 Nato for scale.
Any help with these would be greatly appreciated
Cheers
Tony

 

[TonyE]

7.62mm

When the United States started developing their new light rifle and ammunition (that eventually became the 7.62 x 51mm NATO) in 1945/46 they started with the .300 Savage round as the basic case.

The first military cases were 47mm long. As I do not collect US ammo I do not have the T numbers for all these on the tip of my tongue, but I could look them up for you if another member does not chip in with the answers.

The case was then lengthend to 49mm long (The intermediate round) before finally settling on the now familiar 51mm long case. There were countless bullet types etc, all with different T numbers, and light alloy cases were made in all three case lengths. Your round dates from about 1947.

The other .25" round is part of what was known as the "homogelous" series of rounds, which were the NATO case necked down to .18", .22", .25" and .27". I believe there were also electric primed version of some of these.

Later came the 6.35mm and .25" short cases in the FAT series. the .22 carbine and many more. This was a very prolific period for US experimental ammunition and one favoured by many collectors.

Try searching the IAA forum as there have been some detailed posts on these rounds.

Cheers
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Many,many thanks TonyE,as you know I have only just started down the slippery slope of experimental's and got out of my 'depth' with these two! I do find it a very interesting subject & would appreciate the T number if it does not turn up.
Cheers
Tony

 

[SpudGun]

Your 7.62mm x 47 is a .30 Light Rifle Ball T65. The aluminium case was designated T5

I've seen this unheadstamped round listed as made by Remington Arms between 1945 - 46

 

[TonyE]

Light Rifle

As stated above, the series of cases for the new .30 light rifle were all based on the T65 case, which was the military version of the .300 Savage with no case taper. I think the 47mm case was the T65E1, the 49mm the T65E2 and the 51mm the T65E3.

For the 47mm case, the AP round was the T90, the proof was the T71 and the Dummy the T70. I think the ball round, which had a flat based lead cored bullet of 150 grains was just called the T65, but that needs confirming.

I agree that the aluminium case was probably made by Remington.

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Many thanks TonyE & Spudgun,now I can catalogue these two.
All the best
Tony

 

[Tony Williams]

I think the ball round, which had a flat based lead cored bullet of 150 grains was just called the T65, but that needs confirming.

Labbett says that the 150 grain flat-based ball bullet used in the early experimental rounds was the M2 ball from the .30-06. The boat-tailed bullet was introduced in the T65E4. The numbering then changed to T104, the round initially adopted for service (as the M59) being the T104E2.

 

[Gary Murr]

Hello Everyone:

I am new to this forum and this is my first reply post. I thank the administrators for accepting me to what appears to be an extremely well informed forum.
I came across your forum as a result of a search I was conducting regarding small arms ammunition, experimental and otherwise, of the early Cold War Era. I am an historian by education and am currently working on a paper in this subject era. I am intrigued by what smle2009 has identified as an experimental 6.5mm round of WCC manufacture headstamped as per the originally attached j-peg. My question to all of you much more conversant with this subject matter than I: Can any of you confirm that the above identified ammo is definitely 6.5mm and have any of you ever come across ammunition of this type manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company in the past? Also, can anyone supply me with additional images, particularly of this type of experimental ammunition, if they exist and you possess them in your archives, private or otherwise?

Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated; my intent is now and always has been historical accuracy, as far as I am able to ascertain.

Regards

Gary M

 

[TonyE]

6.5 mm WCC

I think the identification of "6.5mm" is an error, as I think the round is actually a .25" Homologous from the series of rounds designed by Winchester between 1953 and 1957. If I am correct it should have a 17.6 Grn. bullet. See my previous post for the other calibres.

However, I will add the same caveat as previously. US ammunition is not my speciality.

As I said in that post, there were a whole series of experimental rounds from that period, and I wonder if the original author of the "6.5mm" description was confusing it with the Winchester .25" (FA T 116) experimental round or the Frankford Arsenal 6.35mm. These were both much shorter than the 51mm case length of the homologous series and are found in both normal ball and duplex ball loads.

Regards
TonyE

 

[SpudGun]

All rounds are inert

Here are 2 pictures of some WCC headstamped rds including a .25 and .27 Homogolous rds.

 

[smle2009]

Hi all,
Sorry I totaly missed these new threads, the info I had came with these rounds,unfortunatly I do not have accurate means to measure them(top of the shopping list me thinks) also I have a 30"-06/.22"? but the bullet,to me, looks the same as the "6.5",the headstamp on this round is F A 57, TonyE I would also doubt some of the info that came with these rounds as the 7.62mm was marked up as Nato,which of course it could not be because of the case lenght! I will post a photo of the 30-06 tomorow when light permits.
Spudgun that is some collection you have judging by the photo's we have seen lately,thanks for posting them.
Cheers
Tony

 

[smle2009]

Here is the photo of the 30-06/22", also with the "6.5mm-.25", the other round is a 6.5mm Swedish drill round,as you can see the WCC is not 6.5mm & comparing it with the 30-06 bullet would suggest that this round could be a .22" also????
I really must get some calipers!
Cheers
Tony

 

[smle2009]

Sorry here is the photo!

 

[SpudGun]

If the left hand case is 51mm long I'd say you have one of the .22 Homologous series.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]In my picture the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rd from the left are all .22 Homologous[FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]

 

[smle2009]

Hi Spudgun,
It is indeed 51mm,so would I be safe in assuming this is a "necked down" 7.62x51mm?
Cheers
Tony

 

[Gary Murr]

Hello Tony and Spudgun:

I thank you both for your informative replies; it is appreciated. As I indicated previously, accuracy is, from my perspective, important. Spudgun; I am also impressed by your collection of WCC ammo and headstamps - really enjoyed your j-peg images of same. Do you have any WCC 6.5mm cartridges in your collection and if so, would you be so kind as to post any images?

Many thanks,

Gary M