Adapted 75x200 case...what country?

[Hoeksel]

I have a set of 2 rare cases. They are 77x230 FK1896 cases reworked to be 75x200 cases for the FK16 nA. The "normal" one has number 6343a. Recently I found a case from 1924 that is reworked to adapt a different primer. A C/13 German primer is slightly smaller. An Italian Model 1935 primer seems to fit nicely but it does not look "OK". Does anybody know for which primer/country the rework was done? The stamp "R" is used by the French to indicate rework but I cant imagine the case being of French use.

 

[Hoeksel]

Late answer to my own question, yesterday when reading a German document about Bulgarian army I suddenly recognized these cases as being intended for Bulgaria (the "strange" writing is typical Bulgarian style). I have seen plenty more of these cases, and many have typical Bulgarian re-load stamps (for example the letter "T" and re-load year in 2 digits). I wondered for years for who they where!

Bulgaria indeed used both the 77x230 and 75x200 cases for the 7,7 cm FK96nA and the 7,5 cm FK16nA. Also known that Germany was a huge supplier of artillery and ordnance to Bulgaria. So the only question remains , who manufactured these cases originally?

I suspect they are of German manufacture and will be hard to identify, as they where exported from a country that should not do so to a country that was not allowed to import. So I imagine the real manufacturer hides a clear factory logo ;-). Maybe we ever figure out what the "triangle with III" is (seen on most of these 1924 and 1925 cases) or this strange "creative mark" at 6-o-clock is a hint towards the manufacturer or some kind of inspection/acceptence mark.

 

[AKON_]

Hi Hoeksel
Maybe another point of view would be good where the war actually took place in which year. Let's say in 1922 - 1925 ... according to the years and series of deliveries, it was not a one-time thing and Bulgaria (?) is present there ..
Maybe there is some moratorium on deliveries and therefore the secret manufacturer's mark.
-----
Research topic

Списък на фондовете

Държавна агенция "Архиви" (ДАА) е държавната институция в Република България, която осъществява в национален мащаб политиката по събирането, съхраняването, организирането и използването на архивните документи с историческо значение.

www.archives.government.bg

:

фонд 4

Командване на артилерията – под. (35260) 36380 1887–1997 | 9 описа | 826 а.е.

фонд 5

Артилерийско въоръжение – под. (35500) 26040 1914–1988 | 12 описа | 985 а.е.

List of wars: 1900–1944 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hoeksel]

Well, I already thought of that (good thinking) and my previous theory was Spanish (or Morocco) for the rif wars (1921-1926). Reasoning: these cases I mostly found in Spain, and the timeframe matches with the rif wars. The 7,7 cm FK96nA was in heavy use during this war, at least from Spanish side. And, the Germans had good relations with Spain. But this does not explain the Bulgarian marks. I cannot ignore clear Bulgarian re-load marks dated way beyond rif wars up to 1941.

 

[Hoeksel]

Akon_, do you think the Cyrillic 2-letters at 6-o-clock are most likely inspector marks? I have seen 2 different ones, what I would write as "Wr" and "UA". Due to the fact there exist different ones, factory is not likely.

The "triangle with Cyrillic III = "Sch" at 12-o-clock" or the "logo at 6-o-clock (does not look like Cyrillic Bulgarian)" may be a hint to the manufacturer or company that assembled the munitions.

 

[AKON_]

Hi Hoeksel
A big complication is to determine the country of origin of ammunition, etc. material (unless it is a design model that was not produced elsewhere) during the Spanish Civil War. almost all surpluses from Europe after WW1 were used there....Some states kept secret the sale of weapons, ammunition for this conflict more, some less. When we take into account that for other armies, states were not traditional manufacturers in all victorious and defeated states + military armories of unknown companies, the reason must have been more political than military (non-cooperation with Frank), hence the secrecy and use of unusual manufacturer brands and (when I will describe to you the procedure in Czechoslovakia in such cases in the 30s - there were the grinding off of production marks and further anonymization of weapons and ammunition for problematic export..)I have the same opinion on the Inspector's marks "Wr" and "UA", which are actually 2 different ones, even with the justification you wrote.On the "triangle with Cyrillic III = "Sch" at 12-o-clock" or the "logo at 6-o-clock, I believe the manufacturers are in 1924 and 1925.Then there is a set of letters - here mainly because they are stamped by hand using a punch and a hammer, but without the correct location in relation to the center and they are not in the same position in terms of height and age ... from this I conclude to additional stamping. And that by a representative of the receiving authority.Logically, it is the sign of a specific receiving officer (or another person). And then there is another layer of description - German 2 war.
Akon

 

[Irod7]

Bulgaria indeed used both the 77x230 and 75x200 cases for the 7,7 cm FK96nA and the 7,5 cm FK16nA. Also known that Germany was a huge supplier of artillery and ordnance to Bulgaria. So the only question remains , who manufactured these cases originally?

I suspect they are of German manufacture and will be hard to identify

I would say that it is clear they are of German manufacture, due to the use of the german system of stamping casings with their according drawing number (for the case on the right). In D 460/7 you will find the casing for FK16nA with the drawing number 6343 (which has a typical slot for a C/13 style of primer). Your casing has 6343a and a typical ww1 style press-in primer. The connection is quite self-explanatory i hope.

The stamping for the year and month seem to use the same style of punches (font and size) so both cases should be manufactured by the same factory, even though the case on the left does not have the german drawing number and WaA. I think there was a larger contract for a customer, which was honored partially from stocks with cases already manufactured to german specs, and partly with new cases.

 

[Hoeksel]

The 6343a and WaA examples I have seen, including the adapted primer hole, are obviously German made. But they are made afterwards.

I would say that it is clear they are of German manufacture, due to the use of the german system of stamping casings with their according drawing number (for the case on the right). In D 460/7 you will find the casing for FK16nA with the drawing number 6343 (which has a typical slot for a C/13 style of primer). Your casing has 6343a and a typical ww1 style press-in primer. The connection is quite self-explanatory i hope.

The stamping for the year and month seem to use the same style of punches (font and size) so both cases should be manufactured by the same factory, even though the case on the left does not have the german drawing number and WaA. I think there was a larger contract for a customer, which was honored partially from stocks with cases already manufactured to german specs, and partly with new cases.

I am aware of the German markings and the meaning. However, they are added later (and I have seen more examples over the last 10 years). My interest is in the original manufacture of the shell case before Germany added WaA and specific code. I do suspect they actually are of German manufacture, but as AKON stated, they probably did everything to hide this. This may be something we will never proof.