Boys will be Boys !!!

[christhurston]

I've noticed that Boys ATR rounds are getting pulled"tout de suite"when the Mod spots them on SA these days.The most recent selection lasted long enough last night for me to put a bid on them,and this morning both they,and my bid have disappeared.That's a pity,because,although one of them was the dreaded Section 5 AP,the other two were U1 stamped Inspectors Dummies,and I'm guessing would have been no problem.

My suitably certificated decoring subcontractor tells me that although a little time consuming,removing the AP cores is no problem.However,we are both unsure of the situation with the cores themselves,once removed from the jackets,are they still considered to be illegal?

I'll await developments with the Inspectors Dummies,and if they reappear I'll have another go at them,if,as I suspect they are fitted with ball bullets?In the meantime,if anyone has an aluminium cored bullet that I can fit in a PII case,I'd very much like to hear about it.

Regards Chris.

 

[TonyE]

Boys

Hi Chris

No, the cores on their own are not subject to Section 5 as they are not a jacketed projectile once outside of the original round.

Th inspecor's round has a 930 grain bullet (the same weight as the W Mark I) and is usually lead cored, but a solid copper alloy bullet was also authorised.

I suspect you will wait a long time to find a spare P.II aluminium bullet given the scarcity of the round itself, but you may be lucky. I am looking for a bullet for a Ball Mark I and face the same problem.

Regards
TonyE

 

[christhurston]

Hi Tony,
Many thanks,I was thinking that the AP cores would probably be okay on their own,it's good to have that confirmed,I'll have them sent back and display them with the rounds they came from.

If I heat the empty jackets up a bit and fill them with lead,they'll then be much the same as the ball bullets weight wise,they are,of course,much too light at present,I have been considering a metal/epoxy mixture,but lead might be better.

I'm not planning on hiking around the UK with a spade,but I do find myself wondering if the PII aluminium bullets were used in any quantity,and if so,where? The ravages of time and probable impact damage make any such thoughts rather pointless,perhaps,but your Ball Mk 1 might have fared better!!! Do they mind people digging holes at Bisley? it might be a good place to start!!!!

Regards Chris.

 

[TonyE]

Digging

Given the present regime at Bisley I think you would be given your marching orders pretty fast if you started digging holes on the ranges or the butts!

I don't know if they sifted the butts to recover the lead etc. when they were last rebuilt but I don't think there is much chance of finding anything now.

Regards
TonyE

 

[TonyE]

Boys

Since today seems to be a Boys day out, I thought I would post these drill and dummy rounds. I have probably posted them before so bear with me.

Picture 1:

Home Guard locally made with red painted cast lead bullet. K4 1942 WII
Drill D I. RG 43 WII
South African. U D I
Inspector's. R^L 39 UI

Picture 2:

Drill D I. K 40 I
Drill DI. K42 DI
Drill D.I R^L DI

Picture 3:

Canadian Drill Local Pattern, solid cast aluminium: C^ DA DI LP

And Picture 4, not a drill round but my favourite:

.55/.303. K.37. 7416AW

Regards
TonyE

 

[2pounder]

digging for boyes

Have you tried old home guard ranges, more of them about than Bisley but harder to find unless you get talking to some very old local boys. 2pr

 

[christhurston]

Good idea,Clive,I wasn't planning on doing an awful lot of digging myself,of course,I was thinking that that I might chat up a few of the local metal detectorists.I see quite a few of them on the beach here in the summer months,they might welcome the chance to look for something more exciting than kiddies ice cream money !!!

Regards Chris.

 

[2pounder]

home guard boys

The home guard came to mind as my father used to tell a tale of the local home guard who managed to put a bullet into the roof of a nearby house with a .5, and that also one day he brought home a belt of .5 rounds (ex aircraft) for them. Not sure they would have been any use though. 2pr

 

[Bockscar]

.55",Boys Practice.

Some years back when "Good Stuff" could be had on E-Bay, I managed to pick up a fired practice case complete with a projectile. That was the upside...the downside was that the fact that the projectile had been fired!
Luckily it had soft landed leaving no damage marks, been recovered and refitted into an empty case. I wonder how far the bloke (who was obviously a collector!) had to walk from the firing point to pick this up!
I have put some pictures up and on the projectile you can see nice rifling marks....the aluminium core has a small "K" embossed at the rear.

 

[Falcon]

Very nice, I've never seen another one of those.

 

[TonyE]

P.ii

I am intrigued by that proj. Is the envelope gilding metal (copper coloured) or cupro nickel (silver)? It looks like GM in the picture, but the P.II should have a CN envelope.

Regards
TonyE

 

[christhurston]

It's nice and shiny,Tony,it's reflecting the brass that's around it,I think,pic 2 of the base looks silvery enough.I'd like one just like it,I'm investigating the local disused rifle range,much used in WWII,so I might end up with lots of them (in my dreams!) I'm hoping that the by-laws dated 2/12/39 I've found relating to this range have long since lapsed,there's quite a bit about the awful fate awaiting any one taking,or being found in possession of any shot,shell or other projectile or portions thereof.It faces the sea,so includes quite a bit about trawling,dredging etc,I'll need to have a chat with one or two of the local small boat fishermen,sadly,a dying breed hereabouts.

Regards Chris.

 

[Bockscar]

Hi Guys,

The jacket on the projectile is indeed cupro nickel.
I photographed the items where they lay in their display drawer and they obviously picked up the colours from the surrounding brass.
As for shooting range access, I have shot on a range where we had to stop firing every now and again, so that ramblers could walk along the coastal path - all correctly done of course, with radio equipped observers away out on the flanks of the danger area. To get to this range you have to walk past an old abandoned range firing point where .303" cases where lying around in fair amounts in the sand. I always intended to go back sometime with a spade and sieve but never got around to it.

 

[christhurston]

Hello chaps,
I keep looking at Bockscars's proj',and wondering if I could make myself a reasonable copy of it.I've had to accept the fact that I cannot have Boys AP rounds without having the bullets modified.I've found that filling the empty jackets with lead is a very simple process,and I'm debating whether or not soldering the base back on will greatly improve the final result.

If I ensure that the base of a bullet is removed carefully,and I make a replica of the core that's been removed out of aluminium,this could then be inserted back into the jacket.Great care would be needed,of course,as it would need to be bedded back in with molten lead.The base could then be soldered back into place,and hey presto,I'll have something like the proper bullet for my PII case.

The jacket wouldn't be right,but the weight wouldn't be too far out,and as a one off item it would be near enough to the real thing to fit the bill for me.I may well never ever come across a proper PII bullet,so although it involves a fair bit of fiddling around,I would end up with an aluminium cored Boys projectile,although not a factory made item.

Regards Chris,

 

[TonyE]

Aluminium cored bullets

Your post Chris reminded me of one of my more foolish decisions. Many years ago I bought a large lot of mixed bullets at auction which had originally come from Kynoch.

Amongst some nice items like 11.35mm Madsen ball and tracer projs. was an aluminium cored 15mm BESA practice bullet. It was from a batch that had been trialled but not introduced by the British when the BESA was adopted in 1938.

Unfortunately, I was suborned into trading it with another collector by the offer of several other rounds I wanted. Since then I have come across other examples of the rounds I received but never another aluminium 15mm BESA! I have no-one to blame but myself.

Regards
TonyE

 

[christhurston]

I guess that we've all done it,Tony,I,however,have never had a PII bullet,and I certainly hadn't planned on making my own,but it may well be my only option.I've got a PII case and I would really like to have something like the proper bullet in it.

I take it that the aluminium core would have been bedded in lead,the same as the AP version? The CNCS envelope isn't right,but that's the only way I can do it,and it will suffice until the extremely unlikely event of the proper one turning up.

Regards Chris.

 

[Bockscar]

Chris,

You are obviously determined to get a bullet for your P.II case....I am sure you shalll come up with something in the end.
The only thing is the fact that the Practice projectile is in fact longer than the standard projectile. I checked the length of the P.II gainst a spare A/P projectile that I have and there is quite a difference.

The P.II projectile measures 2.313" ( 58.77 m/m), overall.
The spare A/P projectile I have measures 1.955" (49.68 m/m).

Which brings me nicely onto my next question - what was the difference in the MK1 and Mk2 projectiles?.... was it a difference in overall length?
Could it be that the P.II projectile is the same length as the Mk1 A/P projectile and I am measuring it against a Mk2 projectile? ( I think myself that this may be the case).

 

[TonyE]

Wi & wii

The essential difference between the W Mark I and II was weight.

The Mark I weighed 930 grains and had an MV of 2,450 fps. Even in 1938 this was considered to be inadequate and so a new solution was investigated. One that was tried was very heavy tungsten cored bullets weighing 1400 to 1700 grains, but in the end a lighter bullet fired at a higher velocity was adopted. The W Mark II weighed 735 grains at an MV of 2,900 fps.

Lengths of the various bullets were:
P.II 59.3mm
W.I 58.5mm
W.II 50mm

The relative lengths of the W.I and the P.II were not related.

Chris - The PII bullet had an aluminium core made in two pieces, a tip filler and then the main core. They fitted directly into a cupro-nickel envelope with no lead sleeve.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Hello chaps,
I keep looking at Bockscars's proj',and wondering if I could make myself a reasonable copy of it.I've had to accept the fact that I cannot have Boys AP rounds without having the bullets modified.I've found that filling the empty jackets with lead is a very simple process,and I'm debating whether or not soldering the base back on will greatly improve the final result.

If I ensure that the base of a bullet is removed carefully,and I make a replica of the core that's been removed out of aluminium,this could then be inserted back into the jacket.Great care would be needed,of course,as it would need to be bedded back in with molten lead.The base could then be soldered back into place,and hey presto,I'll have something like the proper bullet for my PII case.

The jacket wouldn't be right,but the weight wouldn't be too far out,and as a one off item it would be near enough to the real thing to fit the bill for me.I may well never ever come across a proper PII bullet,so although it involves a fair bit of fiddling around,I would end up with an aluminium cored Boys projectile,although not a factory made item.

Regards Chris,

Why make a replica when you can soften the hardened core by heating to a dull red and allowing it to cool and then re-insert it as it has now become a "Ball" round-someone will need to verify that this will satisfy section 5 requirements but some "ball" rounds have soft steel cores anyway and I suspect they are not considered relevant to anything in section 5 ????????????????
Could someone please confirm this ?
Tony E perhaps!

 

[christhurston]

Hello chaps,
I am quite pleased that there's no need for a lead sleeve in my "pseudo" PII bullet,that does eliminate one potentially hazardous operation.I'll need to use a different jacket though,I was thinking that WII and PII would be the same lengthwise.

I wouldn't be thinking of playing around with bullets like this were it not for the fact that the Section 5 prohibition makes some work on most of them necessary.Apart from the incorrect CNCS envelope,by filling the jackets with lead as I have done,the bullets have been converted to Ball Mark I (almost!)

I'm prepared to consider almost anything to while away the time until it's warm enough to get back in the shed.I have some unused Dremel attachments intended for engraving etc,would putting a K on the base of the new aluminium core be overegging the pudding???

Regards Chris.