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Buying ordnance on line

spotter

UBIQUE
Staff member
Premium Member
There have been a few incidences lately where members have bought potentially live items from various on line auction sites etc..
If buying on line and the item is not already/obviously visually inert for your own safety and safety of others ask the seller to show you the item is fully inert.
e,g buying a mills grenade ask if they will show it fully stripped or filler screw removed to show no explosive content and base plug removed to show no detonator still present.
Two minutes to send an email to the seller could save you or someone else ending up in a box.
 
Hello Allan, even when you strip the items, they will do everything to get it taken by customs, believe me, they have done it with me. Ben
 
Its not the customs thing im concerned about Ben,its members safety,there have been several posts where members have bought items and when they have received them have found they are potentially live, in a recent post (now deleted by one of the mods) a member had a mills grenade bought on line from france,with the filler plug and base plug solid and unable to remove ,i myself have in the past bought items on line which have still contained explosives a no5 grenade and a german kugel both still half full,,fortunately i was in a position where i could take them to work to be disposed of, the majority of dealers are good and reliable but theres always a rogue element who dont know or just dont care.
 
Allan . Thanks for bringing that point to everyones attention . It is important for sellers & collectors to make sure their items are displayed to show they are totally inert . There was another incident with a Mills grenade recently where it was shown with the filler screw & base plug removed BUT when the centre tube was removed , it still had some explosive adhering to the lower part & this is not that uncommon . Relic WW1 grenades [& other items] are quite often the worst offenders as they have usually been inexpertly dealt with . I would stress to any potential buyers , not only online but at fairs also , to be extra vigilant . Mills grenades especially should always be shown to have removable centre tubes & NEVER buy anything you can't see inside of or remove the igniter system from . Siegfreid.
 
I have found that the most likely examples of live ordnance come from antiques dealers or just plain folks who don't know any better. With artilery shells, if there is no propellent in the case, they believe it is safe. they don't realise that the problem is in the projectile, and think the fuze is only a little plug at the end. I have pushed for better info on a few cases, and the seller found out they had a hot one and allegedly had the item destroyed by police. I hve had , inspite of asking,3 live rounds out of about 230, come live and had to be dealt with. In one case, the seller refunded the purchase price. When I collected grenades, never had a live one, but especially Austrian stuff, could often smell the explosive!So in about 500 sales. I have been lucky, I guess.
 
Regarding Siegfreid comments, I totally agree and if a seller or dealer is not prepared to show the item fully stripped down for YOUR satisfaction - walk away, even if it is a good deal always better to be safe. Marcus
 
I have found explosive residue within grenades etc even though they have been inerted. As standard practice I wash them out with acetone and that cleans them up real good. I showed this to the Explosives Inspector a few years back when I was audited and he was very impressed. I always have a bottle on hand to remove any unwanted residues.
 
Hi
I will simply like to into force announce a significant thing for France:
All inert ammunition of war or not, any element of ammunition of war are classified in first category (cases shells fuzes grenades...), therefore prohibited even if transactions at sight of the public passed in addition to, even if exposures sales are organized in public.
To be wary of that in France will be a great wisdom................. inopportune inspections and take off are made rgulirements and legally with hard penalties
 
There have been a few incidences lately where members have bought potentially live items from various on line auction sites etc..
If buying on line and the item is not already/obviously visually inert for your own safety and safety of others ask the seller to show you the item is fully inert.
e,g buying a mills grenade ask if they will show it fully stripped or filler screw removed to show no explosive content and base plug removed to show no detonator still present.
Two minutes to send an email to the seller could save you or someone else ending up in a box.

Hi Spotter,
I am so very sorry mate,I honestly thought that nuke was just a practice bomb!....joking aside I have been on the receiving end of supposedly inert stuff from the net...In my experience it would seem that the sellers of general militaria that have the occasional piece of ordnance for sale are the ones to watch out for!

Cheers
Tony
 
That is a good point well made by Spotter.
As a new trader in Militaria and Ordnance we took a good look at our handling procedures for Ordnance whether purchasing or selling to the public and put in place a rigorous safety procedure we call our “ Safe Ordnance Certified” scheme.
Anything we buy and sell is checked at source before arrival to our stores and checked again upon dispatch to a customer. All ordnance in our inventory which has passed the safety checks carries our “Safe Ordnance Certified” labels.
Each sub-type of ordnance that we handle has its own documentation showing schematics for the component parts and identifying were each explosive element is contained within the item. Only when each part has been checked and clear, do we accept an item into our inventory.
In the UK we have ambiguous laws governing the sale of Militaria and Ordnance. It doesn’t take too much effort for traders to put in place safe working practices to help keep the industry safe and avoid the type of cases mentioned in this thread.
No matter where you buy your ordnance from, always check it first and don’t take anyone’s word for it being safe.
 
Anything we buy and sell is checked at source before arrival to our stores and checked again upon dispatch to a customer. All ordnance in our inventory which has passed the safety checks carries our “Safe Ordnance Certified” labels.
Each sub-type of ordnance that we handle has its own documentation showing schematics for the component parts and identifying were each explosive element is contained within the item. Only when each part has been checked and clear, do we accept an item into our inventory.

No matter where you buy your ordnance from, always check it first and don’t take anyone’s word for it being safe.[/QUOTE]



With the exception of your last sentence, your post seems a little naive. This subject has been discussed at length previously in a number of posts - the need for a certification standard, etc, but never to anyone's satisfaction. It boils down to a couple of points. First, who are you, and what does your "certification" mean to me? (spoken in general, don't take it too personally) Standards and qualifications in training and experience vary, country to country, service to service, military to civilian, person to person. We are an international community and finding a single standard is not going to happen. Offering "certification" as per your last sentence, whether from you or anyone else means nothing to me, and offers a false sense of security to anyone that does accept it - i.e. if I accept your certification, why not accept his? If I shouldn't accept his, why bother giving me yours?

Your procedures for purchasing and selling are commendable on the surface, but again perhaps a bit naive. If you buy and sell only the items that you have a reference for, then you have a pretty limited collection. One of the biggest draws of this forum is that you can request assistance in identification. The number of items that remain unidentified despite the community's best efforts is in the hundreds, probably thousands. The lack of a document does not make it less collectable, desirable or inert, it just means that different procedures need to be applied in determining if it is safe for you to collect and manage. However offering procedures that may limit commercial liability does not necessarily pass over to the best procedures for the collecting world, and I would hesitate to endorse them before it places limitations that as a group or individuals we are not prepared to accept.

Spotter's post and your last sentence put it most clearly - take precautions, let the buyer beware and notify appropriate authorities whenever something is in question. But lets keep away from the language of "certification" until it actually means something that we can all agree on.
 
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