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Deactivated guns in france
- Thread starter packer
- Start date
Hi Tony
i dont think it is as clear cut as that we are after all part of the EU and as such i think we all have to meet the same basic standards.
in the uk our proof houses seen to go further than others. i am not fully up to speed with this issue (law)but on other forums it has been chewed over and it seems that there is more to this than meets the eye.
it has beed asked of the proof houses about eu standards of deac work and the responce has been we do not recognise this rarther than it would be not ok(they wont declare them as not good enough for the uk but wont say yes) i think there seems to be some eliment of profit protection hear as the price of deac's in this country is very high compared to the rest of the eu. this also is a gray area with factory deac AK 47s.
if i was looking to purchase a french deac i would talk to my local fire arms officer and ask the question as enforsment seems to very fron county to county.
Andy
i dont think it is as clear cut as that we are after all part of the EU and as such i think we all have to meet the same basic standards.
in the uk our proof houses seen to go further than others. i am not fully up to speed with this issue (law)but on other forums it has been chewed over and it seems that there is more to this than meets the eye.
it has beed asked of the proof houses about eu standards of deac work and the responce has been we do not recognise this rarther than it would be not ok(they wont declare them as not good enough for the uk but wont say yes) i think there seems to be some eliment of profit protection hear as the price of deac's in this country is very high compared to the rest of the eu. this also is a gray area with factory deac AK 47s.
if i was looking to purchase a french deac i would talk to my local fire arms officer and ask the question as enforsment seems to very fron county to county.
Andy
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
I don't own de-acts or normally have anything to do with them as I shoot live weapons on a firearms certificate, but I would think one would have a hard time convincing the police that a weapon was acceptably deactivated if it was not proof marked b a British Proof House. As for all being part of the EU, I wonder how that squares with the different firearms laws in all the different countries?
The question of cross border acceptance for de-acts was discussed at some length on the Great War Forum recently.
Regards
TonyE
The question of cross border acceptance for de-acts was discussed at some length on the Great War Forum recently.
Regards
TonyE
smle2009
Well-Known Member
Just been looking at the 1988 firearms(amendment) act as discribed in Tony Jeeves book 'a collectors guide to collecting deactivated weapons',and it would seem,in the UK,that strict methods of de act work as laid down by the home office have to be checked at either the Birmingham proof house or the London proof house where,if all is well, a individual certificate of de act is issued and signed by the proof master.
So it would seem without this certificate or the proof house stamps on key parts of the weapon(crossed swords,DA & date numbers on Birminham proof house and scimitar,DA & date numbers on the London proof house) that they are not legal de-acts in this country,we are in the E.U.,but every country has it's own laws.(I think it is daft that I need a passport to go to France but don't need it again in Europe once there!!!)
Very handy book to have if a collector,not only explains the law and de-acts but also gives great detail of the work,to home office standard,carried out on all types of weapons
Cheers
Tony
So it would seem without this certificate or the proof house stamps on key parts of the weapon(crossed swords,DA & date numbers on Birminham proof house and scimitar,DA & date numbers on the London proof house) that they are not legal de-acts in this country,we are in the E.U.,but every country has it's own laws.(I think it is daft that I need a passport to go to France but don't need it again in Europe once there!!!)
Very handy book to have if a collector,not only explains the law and de-acts but also gives great detail of the work,to home office standard,carried out on all types of weapons
Cheers
Tony
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peregrinvs
Well-Known Member
For what it's worth: I've heard (from someone quite knowledgeable about UK firearms law) that the UK legality of a non-UK deact depends on how it has been deactivated. If it has been done in a way that meets or exceeds the current UK spec, then it is *probably* OK. (Note that it is likely to be seized by Customs for examination by a body like the Forensic Science Service before you got your hands on it) If it has been done in a way that is less than the current UK spec, then it's definitely a no-no and would have to be imported as a live firearm by an RFD and redone to current UK spec.
As with relic guns, it essentially depends on whether it has "been rendered incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile and has consequently ceased to be a firearm" in the sense of being able to convince a court that that is the case.
Or to put it another way: UK law doesn't recognise foreign deactivation certification schemes, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that a foreign deact is UK legal.
As with relic guns, it essentially depends on whether it has "been rendered incapable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile and has consequently ceased to be a firearm" in the sense of being able to convince a court that that is the case.
Or to put it another way: UK law doesn't recognise foreign deactivation certification schemes, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that a foreign deact is UK legal.
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smle2009
Well-Known Member
One other fly in the ungent is the point of law that legal UK de-activation must be carried out by a RFD,the 'rendered incapable of discharging a shot or projectile' is also not foolproof as a weapon that has had only the barrel de-act is no longer able to fire shot or projectile,but certain other parts on said weapon such as firing pin are still firearm restricted(and indeed the same case applies to relics)
Another point I have often wonderd about is the current spec de-acts and as it is still legal to own UK pre current spec de-acts would you get away with a foreign de-act done to former UK specs if you can prove when it was done?
Tony
Another point I have often wonderd about is the current spec de-acts and as it is still legal to own UK pre current spec de-acts would you get away with a foreign de-act done to former UK specs if you can prove when it was done?
Tony
peregrinvs
Well-Known Member
Good points. I'd assume that the 'rendered incapable...' bit would as a minimum have to apply to all the pressure bearing components to be valid. As regards 'old-spec style' foreign deacts, I'd assume the legally significant date would be the date it arrived at the UK's border, not the date it was deactivated abroad.
But to return to the original point, I'd have said the safest course of action would be to import via a UK RFD who can arrange Proof House certification and carry out any further deactivation work that is required. Needless to say this would all be expensive, so not worth it unless the foreign deact concerned is something particularly desirable.
But to return to the original point, I'd have said the safest course of action would be to import via a UK RFD who can arrange Proof House certification and carry out any further deactivation work that is required. Needless to say this would all be expensive, so not worth it unless the foreign deact concerned is something particularly desirable.
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Mark Finneran
Well-Known Member
Peregrinvs advice is spot on. Currently French deactivation for a MG for example is 'bugger' the barrel, but the barrel is not fixed - so clearly a ''live'' gun. German deactivation is harsher than UK. Even relics as they continue to crumble in the post when being sent, if there is any doubt should be Proof House checked. Better sfae than sorry. The whole Home Office rules I think should be revisited as we slowly creep into the 100 years for WWI pieces. Availability of the correct ammunition is also a factor on whether something should be deactivated/murdered or not.
Simply put if in any doubt have it Proof checked. Admittedly some pieces are only dangerous if used as a club but the rules are very black and white which I guess is the only way nowadays.
Mark
Simply put if in any doubt have it Proof checked. Admittedly some pieces are only dangerous if used as a club but the rules are very black and white which I guess is the only way nowadays.
Mark
smle2009
Well-Known Member
Hi Mark,
your remark ref the availability of correct ammunition,neatly brings us into obsolete calibre certified weapons,which personaly I think the law has been an ass on this one as it is not what it seems,the declaration does not mean there is no ammo for this type of weapon it actualy means that no British proof house have the proof rounds for it,therfore it cannot be legaly proofed.
Take for example the .577/450 Martini Henry,no proof rounds are held by the proof houses therfore,if you are over 18 years old,you can buy a fully working MH that has been certified as an obsolete calibre weapon and as collectors of live ammo will know there is still plenty of live ammunition for these weapons out there and indeed there are two companys that I know of still make it.
Knowing the damage these weapons are capable of causing(Zulu wars spring to mind) I shudder to think of the possible outcome from one of these perfectly legal to own weapon in the 'wrong hands'.
Tony
your remark ref the availability of correct ammunition,neatly brings us into obsolete calibre certified weapons,which personaly I think the law has been an ass on this one as it is not what it seems,the declaration does not mean there is no ammo for this type of weapon it actualy means that no British proof house have the proof rounds for it,therfore it cannot be legaly proofed.
Take for example the .577/450 Martini Henry,no proof rounds are held by the proof houses therfore,if you are over 18 years old,you can buy a fully working MH that has been certified as an obsolete calibre weapon and as collectors of live ammo will know there is still plenty of live ammunition for these weapons out there and indeed there are two companys that I know of still make it.
Knowing the damage these weapons are capable of causing(Zulu wars spring to mind) I shudder to think of the possible outcome from one of these perfectly legal to own weapon in the 'wrong hands'.
Tony
peregrinvs
Well-Known Member
Here's a copy of the Obsolete Calibre list:
http://www.david-squires.org.uk/Antiques.htm
Any gun chambered in one of these calibres qualifies for the Section 58 'antique or curio' exemption - as long as you don't fire it. (Including blanks) If you did want to fire it, you would need to apply for an FAC.
I agree that the law on these is a bit muddled - if I wanted a live firearm without an FAC, this would be a very tempting option. The infamous Mick Shepherd case revolved around the finer details of the Section 58 exemption.
Mark
http://www.david-squires.org.uk/Antiques.htm
Any gun chambered in one of these calibres qualifies for the Section 58 'antique or curio' exemption - as long as you don't fire it. (Including blanks) If you did want to fire it, you would need to apply for an FAC.
I agree that the law on these is a bit muddled - if I wanted a live firearm without an FAC, this would be a very tempting option. The infamous Mick Shepherd case revolved around the finer details of the Section 58 exemption.
Mark