Differences between pzgr39-1 or pzgr39/43?

[marty_01]

Can someone explain to me the differences between pzgr39-1 or pzgr39/43 that was utilized by the following German guns? Or is there no difference?

1) 8,8cmL71 Flak 41
2) 8,8cmL71 Pak 43 (Pak 43, Pak 43/1,43/2 or 43/3)
3) 8,8cmL71 KwK 43

Thanks very much for any replies.

Best Regards
Marty

 

[RichardB]

Hi Marty,

I'm sure someone will have a more precise answer, but I believe the difference between the Pzgr39 and the Pzgr39-1 was the quality of the steel and also cavity size.

And the difference between the two you requested, Pzgr39-1 and the Pzgr39/43 was the width of the driving bands allowing higher pressures (more powerful guns). I think the Pzgr39-1 was acceptable with the Pak43/Kw.K43 so long as it hadnt fired more than 500 rounds.

To my knowledge, I think the projectile is identical between all three, if its applicable..ie

1) 8,8cmL71 Flak 41 - Uses Pzgr39-1
2) 8,8cmL71 Pak 43 (Pak 43, Pak 43/1,43/2 or 43/3) - can use Pzgr39-1 or Pzgr39/43
3) 8,8cmL71 KwK 43 - Can use Pzgr39-1 or Pzgr39/43

Can anyone add to or correct that

Rich

 

[pzgr40/42]

8,8 cm PzGr

Rich, Marty,

Rich you are quite right, except for cavity size.
The 8,8 cm PzGr 39 and 39/1, to my knowledge, had the same cavity size.

However, the earlier 8,8 cm PzGr (no additions to this nomenclature!) had a larger cavity size and used a different Zdr, the BdZ fr 8,8 cm PzGr (a notably different design) instead of the BdZ 5127 used on the 39, 39/1 and 39/43 types.

KwK 43 and PaK 43 indeed fired 39, 39/1 and naturally the 39/43, the latter having wider drivingbands. The 39 and 39/1 could only be fired as long as these guns hadn't yet fired 500 rounds. The wider drivingbands on the 39/43 were meant to deal with both loss of pressure and somewhat correcting the effects of wear in the barrel.

The FlaK 41 used either 39 or 39/1, the earlier 8,8 cm PzGr not being designed to cope with the higher pressure generated by the lager propellant charge in the longer "41" case. I have no info on FlaK 41 firing 39/43 but have never heard his mentioned (and it seems unlikely).

Flak 18/36/37 fired 8,8 cm PzGr, 39 and 39/1

greetz,

Menno.

 

[marty_01]

Thanks Rich and Pzgr40/42. I just wanted to make sure.

It makes sense as the Dattenblattes for pak43, pak43/1, pak43/2, pak43/3 and kwk43 all indicate the exact same armor penetration capability for the various version of pzgr39. While I assumed there may have been subtle changes to drive bands and etc. the basic penetration capability remained constant for the various editions of pzgr-39.

I have never seen a Dattenblatte for Flak-41, however I assume it's various versions of pzgr-39 had the same penetration values as pak43 and kwk43 -- or were the Flak-41 penetration capabilities higher than pak43 & kwk43 ?

 

[RichardB]

Hi Marty,
Pure speculation here, but I'd assume for the same projectile and propelling charge, the penetration would be a function of both volume of the propelling charge and the length of the barrel.

The Pak/Kwk43 used a case 88x822R with a larger diameter than 88x855r case of the Flak41, so Id expect the volume of the Kwk43 is slightly higher than that of the Flak41, and proportionally slightly higher penetration.

Anyway...anyone else has thoughts.

Rich