I've done a little article based on British ATGWs & Land Rovers that I hope might be of some interest.
http://hmvf.co.uk/pdf/LAND ROVERS THAT FIRE MISSILES.pdf
http://hmvf.co.uk/pdf/LAND ROVERS THAT FIRE MISSILES.pdf
British Ordnance Collectors Network
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Early British ATGWs
- Thread starter fv1620
- Start date
Thank you Tony. My background is that I used to have Vigilants on my Shorland & I used to have a Hornet with Malkaras. From that article you can no doubt sense my frustration that Orange William has been side stepped by history.
I find it disappointing, if not shameful, that the only example of OW has disappeared from Bovington. Yet to quote the Secretary of State for War was to "wipe the tank from the battlefield", I would have thought that it should command a bit more curiosity.
I find it disappointing, if not shameful, that the only example of OW has disappeared from Bovington. Yet to quote the Secretary of State for War was to "wipe the tank from the battlefield", I would have thought that it should command a bit more curiosity.
Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
Congratulations on a very thorough study of a little-known subject.
Thanks for showing that very interesting article. I helped to destroy some of the last depot stocks of Vigilant in 1980. I helped with Initial Acceptance inspections of around 300 SS11 (also first generation, HEAT) in 1980/81. It was soon obsolescent for British service but its in-service life was extended following its use against an Argentinian submarine in 1982 in the Falklands war. I became a GW instructor in 1985 and it was still in service then. I believe it was declared obsolete in British service in about 1987. 5 UDR was still using Shorlands when I was based with them in 1982. In the early 1980s I prepared Swingfire MMAs (missile main assemblages - the aft body of the missile) dating from the late 1960s for nuclear blast trials that were to take place in Australia. In 1990 I was the range AT for a trial where the intention was to upgrade Swingfire to second generation via a fibre optic link to a nose mounted camera, added to the guidance wire. Despite a recurring problem the trial was successful and no doubt with refinement the problem could have been overcome. I do not know whether it was followed up with an improved version. Also during my time, TOW was upgraded, first to ITOW (improved TOW) and then FITOW (Further Improved TOW), having increased stand-off distances to improve penetration. Following service in the Falklands, fitted to Lynx helicopters, the TOW `sock' was introduced after problems with icing were experienced, with missile tubes frozen to launchers. I was also a range AT at Blowpipe and then Javelin firings, although all were shoulder launched or fired from the LML rather than fired from Landrovers. The only missile I saw fired from a Landrover was Milan on a pintle mount, used by Special Forces. Milan was upgraded from the J103 (103 mm diameter, round nosed warhead) to the K115 (115 mm diameter with increased length stand-off nose). During my service Rapier moved to a tracked launcher version. Warheads were also upgraded and diversified for greater lethality.
I share your frustration with governments and their fickle ways. Several years work were spent on the Long Range and Short Range versions of the third generation TRIGAT system, only for everything to be officially binned (in about 2004?).
Sorry, it wasn't Bonnex I was trying to thank for posting the info.
I share your frustration with governments and their fickle ways. Several years work were spent on the Long Range and Short Range versions of the third generation TRIGAT system, only for everything to be officially binned (in about 2004?).
Sorry, it wasn't Bonnex I was trying to thank for posting the info.
Last edited:
Thank you all for your encouraging comments. I'm quite dyslexic & writing articles takes a while to distil into something readable, this article developed into this over a number of years. Even so little snippets surface all the time, two days ago I stumbled on the FVRDE Design Specs for the two types of Land Rover used with Blue Water, one was a control vehicle & the other a test vehicle, yet glancing at the picture one might assume there was just a Station Wagon with kit thrown in the back.
The greatest time is in the research & getting images. I've posted the link onto some Land Rover sites but the greatest fascination there seems to be the various number plates used.
Bonnex that is an interesting picture of the Land Rover, it looks similar to the RARDE concept for Quickfire. Have you got any more info on what it was firing or even the date?
Ammotechxt nice to talk with someone who served with Vigilant & other GWs. It’s always interesting hearing experiences from all sides. I have spoken with Val Cockle who rejected Vigilant twice & the have had the take on things from someone on the sales team. Same with Malkara spoken to lots of users ex Cyclops 2 RTR & Para Sqn RAC but also BAE people who went on the trials. Things you hear that the separation sight was jinxed & you got static shock off the separation sight, yet the BAE man said it was just that the sight got so damn hot in the desert you couldn’t touch it & they could detect no static problems.
If you are allowed to say, so where & how where the Vigilants disposed of? Just destroyed or just fired off for fun as it were like the Malkaras up in the Hebrides?
I was always surprised that we bought SS11 as I would have thought keeping controllers trained & proficient at guiding them in the heat of battle with acceleration control was likely to be less successful than Vigilant with velocity control.
TRIGAT yes I remember taking part in “ATGWs – An Introduction” a SSVC film for the RAC in 1995 & there was an interview with a boffin for TRIGAT & stating it was due to go in service in 2006.
Did you have any experience with ENTAC? On the ENTAC thread I posted that it was also trialled (or perhaps tried), with the British Army. I was expecting someone to say no, they have never heard that. Well some years ago I was allowed to scavenge some scrap items from Netheravon. There was an arm from a Hornet, a cutaway Malkara, Swingfire & Vigilant. A Vigilant bin & a very rare Clevite one. Also an ENTAC nose, carry box, & launch box and a box for SS11. Even the wooden nose & wing for a Sagger. So all sorts of things had been trialled up there!
As for Shorlands do you have any pictures? I see that mine was issued to 5 UDR after it was removed from Police service in 1970. When the new ones were issued to 5 UDR there were 4 Shorlands initially, but from my records I see that 15 Mk 3 Shorlands at varioustimes passed through 5 UDR.
Interestingly the Vigilant Shorland demonstrated at the Paris Air Show in 1967 was an RUC one with the special turret dropped on. This is why one RUC Shorland continued in service still with the extended boot - to carry 3 spare missiles!
Thank you all for your encouraging comments. I'm quite dyslexic & writing articles takes a while to distil into something readable, this article developed into this over a number of years. Even so little snippets surface all the time, two days ago I stumbled on the FVRDE Design Specs for the two types of Land Rover used with Blue Water, one was a control vehicle & the other a test vehicle, yet glancing at the picture one might assume there was just a Station Wagon with kit thrown in the back.
The greatest time is in the research & getting images. I've posted the link onto some Land Rover sites but the greatest fascination there seems to be the various number plates used.
Bonnex that is an interesting picture of the Land Rover, it looks similar to the RARDE concept for Quickfire. Have you got any more info on what it was firing or even the date?
Ammotechxt nice to talk with someone who served with Vigilant & other GWs. It’s always interesting hearing experiences from all sides. I have spoken with Val Cockle who rejected Vigilant twice & the have had the take on things from someone on the sales team. Same with Malkara spoken to lots of users ex Cyclops 2 RTR & Para Sqn RAC but also BAE people who went on the trials. Things you hear that the separation sight was jinxed & you got static shock off the separation sight, yet the BAE man said it was just that the sight got so damn hot in the desert you couldn’t touch it & they could detect no static problems.
If you are allowed to say, so where & how where the Vigilants disposed of? Just destroyed or just fired off for fun as it were like the Malkaras up in the Hebrides?
I was always surprised that we bought SS11 as I would have thought keeping controllers trained & proficient at guiding them in the heat of battle with acceleration control was likely to be less successful than Vigilant with velocity control.
TRIGAT yes I remember taking part in “ATGWs – An Introduction” a SSVC film for the RAC in 1995 & there was an interview with a boffin for TRIGAT & stating it was due to go in service in 2006.
Did you have any experience with ENTAC? On the ENTAC thread I posted that it was also trialled (or perhaps tried), with the British Army. I was expecting someone to say no, they have never heard that. Well some years ago I was allowed to scavenge some scrap items from Netheravon. There was an arm from a Hornet, a cutaway Malkara, Swingfire & Vigilant. A Vigilant bin & a very rare Clevite one. Also an ENTAC nose, carry box, & launch box and a box for SS11. Even the wooden nose & wing for a Sagger. So all sorts of things had been trialled up there!
As for Shorlands do you have any pictures? I see that mine was issued to 5 UDR after it was removed from Police service in 1970. When the new ones were issued to 5 UDR there were 4 Shorlands initially, but from my records I see that 15 Mk 3 Shorlands at varioustimes passed through 5 UDR.
Interestingly the Vigilant Shorland demonstrated at the Paris Air Show in 1967 was an RUC one with the special turret dropped on. This is why one RUC Shorland continued in service still with the extended boot - to carry 3 spare missiles!
Thank you all for your encouraging comments. I'm quite dyslexic & writing articles takes a while to distil into something readable. But the greatest time is in the research & manipulating images. I've posted the link onto some Land Rover sites
The greatest time is in the research & getting images. I've posted the link onto some Land Rover sites but the greatest fascination there seems to be the various number plates used.
Bonnex that is an interesting picture of the Land Rover, it looks similar to the RARDE concept for Quickfire. Have you got any more info on what it was firing or even the date?
Ammotechxt nice to talk with someone who served with Vigilant & other GWs. It’s always interesting hearing experiences from all sides. I have spoken with Val Cockle who rejected Vigilant twice & the have had the take on things from someone on the sales team. Same with Malkara spoken to lots of users ex Cyclops 2 RTR & Para Sqn RAC but also BAE people who went on the trials. Things you hear that the separation sight was jinxed & you got static shock off the separation sight, yet the BAE man said it was just that the sight got so damn hot in the desert you couldn’t touch it & they could detect no static problems.
If you are allowed to say, so where & how where the Vigilants disposed of? Just destroyed or just fired off for fun as it were like the Malkaras up in the Hebrides?
I was always surprised that we bought SS11 as I would have thought keeping controllers trained & proficient at guiding them in the heat of battle with acceleration control was likely to be less successful than Vigilant with velocity control.
TRIGAT yes I remember taking part in “ATGWs – An Introduction” a SSVC film for the RAC in 1995 & there was an interview with a boffin for TRIGAT & stating it was due to go in service in 2006.
Did you have any experience with ENTAC? On the ENTAC thread I posted that it was also trialled (or perhaps tried), with the British Army. I was expecting someone to say no, they have never heard that. Well some years ago I was allowed to scavenge some scrap items from Netheravon. There was an arm from a Hornet, a cutaway Malkara, Swingfire & Vigilant. A Vigilant bin & a very rare Clevite one. Also an ENTAC nose, carry box, & launch box and a box for SS11. Even the wooden nose & wing for a Sagger. So all sorts of things had been trialled up there!
As for Shorlands do you have any pictures? I see that mine was issued to 5 UDR after it was removed from Police service in 1970. When the new ones were issued to 5 UDR there were 4 Shorlands initially, but from my records I see that 15 Mk 3 Shorlands at varioustimes passed through 5 UDR.
Interestingly the Vigilant Shorland demonstrated at the Paris Air Show in 1967 was an RUC one with the special turret dropped on. This is why one RUC Shorland continued in service still with the extended boot - to carry 3 spare missiles!
Thank you all for your encouraging comments. I'm quite dyslexic & writing articles takes a while to distil into something readable, this article developed into this over a number of years. Even so little snippets surface all the time, two days ago I stumbled on the FVRDE Design Specs for the two types of Land Rover used with Blue Water, one was a control vehicle & the other a test vehicle, yet glancing at the picture one might assume there was just a Station Wagon with kit thrown in the back.
The greatest time is in the research & getting images. I've posted the link onto some Land Rover sites but the greatest fascination there seems to be the various number plates used.
Bonnex that is an interesting picture of the Land Rover, it looks similar to the RARDE concept for Quickfire. Have you got any more info on what it was firing or even the date?
Ammotechxt nice to talk with someone who served with Vigilant & other GWs. It’s always interesting hearing experiences from all sides. I have spoken with Val Cockle who rejected Vigilant twice & the have had the take on things from someone on the sales team. Same with Malkara spoken to lots of users ex Cyclops 2 RTR & Para Sqn RAC but also BAE people who went on the trials. Things you hear that the separation sight was jinxed & you got static shock off the separation sight, yet the BAE man said it was just that the sight got so damn hot in the desert you couldn’t touch it & they could detect no static problems.
If you are allowed to say, so where & how where the Vigilants disposed of? Just destroyed or just fired off for fun as it were like the Malkaras up in the Hebrides?
I was always surprised that we bought SS11 as I would have thought keeping controllers trained & proficient at guiding them in the heat of battle with acceleration control was likely to be less successful than Vigilant with velocity control.
TRIGAT yes I remember taking part in “ATGWs – An Introduction” a SSVC film for the RAC in 1995 & there was an interview with a boffin for TRIGAT & stating it was due to go in service in 2006.
Did you have any experience with ENTAC? On the ENTAC thread I posted that it was also trialled (or perhaps tried), with the British Army. I was expecting someone to say no, they have never heard that. Well some years ago I was allowed to scavenge some scrap items from Netheravon. There was an arm from a Hornet, a cutaway Malkara, Swingfire & Vigilant. A Vigilant bin & a very rare Clevite one. Also an ENTAC nose, carry box, & launch box and a box for SS11. Even the wooden nose & wing for a Sagger. So all sorts of things had been trialled up there!
As for Shorlands do you have any pictures? I see that mine was issued to 5 UDR after it was removed from Police service in 1970. When the new ones were issued to 5 UDR there were 4 Shorlands initially, but from my records I see that 15 Mk 3 Shorlands at varioustimes passed through 5 UDR.
Interestingly the Vigilant Shorland demonstrated at the Paris Air Show in 1967 was an RUC one with the special turret dropped on. This is why one RUC Shorland continued in service still with the extended boot - to carry 3 spare missiles!
Thank you all for your encouraging comments. I'm quite dyslexic & writing articles takes a while to distil into something readable. But the greatest time is in the research & manipulating images. I've posted the link onto some Land Rover sites
Clive,
The picture is connected with a programme in the 1960s to determine the feasilbility of a Field Artillery Rocket System to meet the needs of General Staff Target (GST) 3427. It was a programme led by RARDE in collaboration with the Rocket Propulsion Establishment (RPE) and the Explosives Research and Development Establshment (ERDE) with support by Proof & Experimental Establishment (P&EE), ROFs, Hunting Engineering Ltd and Wilmot Packaging Ltd. The aim of the programme was to determine the suitability of free flight rocket systems in field artillery roles.
7-inch diameter warheads were devised and some manufactured for experimentation. Warheads included:
Anti-APC Pre-formed fragment type containing 1120 dense metal spheres detonated at about 10 feet from the ground
Anti-personnel Pre-formed fragment type containing 22,250 spheres
Cluster Warhead containing 220 by 1.5-in diameter bomblets
and consideration given to warheads containing flechettes, minelets, self-forging fragments, fuel/air explosives. Chemical and nuclear warheads were not studied in detail but the 7-inch warhead was considered a viable for both apllications.
6 and 7-inch rocket motors were tested and the 7-inch (known as FFR 2) rocket including warhead was 9.5ft long with an all up weight of about 325lbs (payload about 100lbs of that).
I'm not sure if the rocket had a codename, I expect it did. You will perhaps have associated the multiple barrel version on the Bedford RL with MLRS. Work continued after the feasibility study but I dont believe the British efforts by those listed earlier matured into any contract by the procurement people. The US Vought Corporation's MLRS system was of course brought into service with the UK military. Where did Vought get their ideas from? Well Vought owned Hunting Engineering so I leave it you to decide if this FARS programme laid the foundations for MLRS.
The picture is connected with a programme in the 1960s to determine the feasilbility of a Field Artillery Rocket System to meet the needs of General Staff Target (GST) 3427. It was a programme led by RARDE in collaboration with the Rocket Propulsion Establishment (RPE) and the Explosives Research and Development Establshment (ERDE) with support by Proof & Experimental Establishment (P&EE), ROFs, Hunting Engineering Ltd and Wilmot Packaging Ltd. The aim of the programme was to determine the suitability of free flight rocket systems in field artillery roles.
7-inch diameter warheads were devised and some manufactured for experimentation. Warheads included:
Anti-APC Pre-formed fragment type containing 1120 dense metal spheres detonated at about 10 feet from the ground
Anti-personnel Pre-formed fragment type containing 22,250 spheres
Cluster Warhead containing 220 by 1.5-in diameter bomblets
and consideration given to warheads containing flechettes, minelets, self-forging fragments, fuel/air explosives. Chemical and nuclear warheads were not studied in detail but the 7-inch warhead was considered a viable for both apllications.
6 and 7-inch rocket motors were tested and the 7-inch (known as FFR 2) rocket including warhead was 9.5ft long with an all up weight of about 325lbs (payload about 100lbs of that).
I'm not sure if the rocket had a codename, I expect it did. You will perhaps have associated the multiple barrel version on the Bedford RL with MLRS. Work continued after the feasibility study but I dont believe the British efforts by those listed earlier matured into any contract by the procurement people. The US Vought Corporation's MLRS system was of course brought into service with the UK military. Where did Vought get their ideas from? Well Vought owned Hunting Engineering so I leave it you to decide if this FARS programme laid the foundations for MLRS.
Hello Clive,
With regards to Vigilant there was still a box and controller at the AS of A when I arrived there in 1985 - I don't know what happened to them, they may have ended up in the AS of A museum. As teaching aids we had cutaway versions of the missiles and some of the components and hopefully those would have ended up in the museum after the systems were declared obsolete. However space was limited and there was no storage space unless the AS of A had access to an old rail served ESH, so if something were added to the display, something else would no doubt have to be taken away. Vigilants were destroyed on the Otterburn dem ground, two missiles to a pit, with 2 x 50 Lb boxes of modern RDX/TNT chips, 2 boxes x 14 x 1Lb WW2 CE/TNT blocks and a small amount of PE4 and det cord to make the lot go (maximum NEQ per pit was 140 Lb). We still had to run around with fire beaters to put out fires caused by burning Vigilant flares that were thrown clear. I have some photos taken by one of my instructors from that time (I was still an apprentice) and will try to find them to post them as part of this thread. I believe the dem ground was closed for an indefinite period from the 1980s after one of my colleagues was injured in the stomach by shrapnel after a secondary explosion in one of the pits, when he returned to them to check all had blown. Something in the pit was still burning after the blow and as he reached the pit it exploded.
As you say, SS11 was a difficult beast to control. I went on two firing camps where about 40 practice missiles were fired in each. The helicopter had to be pretty static for the firer to have much chance of a hit. There was only one man I saw who was much good. His colleagues weren't able to do very well but hopefully they were new to the job. It didn't help when a guidance wire from a fired missile got wrapped up in a helicopter's rotor.
I believe ENTAC was before my time, although it was still in service with other countries.
Unfortunately I don't believe I ever photographed a Shorland. I had never heard of it before I saw one for the first time. I remember them swaying as they went round corners, probably due to the weight of the armour. Reminded me of a Robin Reliant (I was once a passenger in the back of a Robin Reliant, driven at speed - difficult to believe it could be driven at speed I guess - an unforgettable experience).
Midge was still in service when I became an instructor, although it was not one of my systems. I remember that it had a cassette for loading a number of photoflash cartridges for use of the camera at night. I would guess that such cartridges are fairly rare. The AN USD part of AN USD 501 was the acronym for `Automatic Navigated Unmanned Surveillance Drone'.
With regards to Vigilant there was still a box and controller at the AS of A when I arrived there in 1985 - I don't know what happened to them, they may have ended up in the AS of A museum. As teaching aids we had cutaway versions of the missiles and some of the components and hopefully those would have ended up in the museum after the systems were declared obsolete. However space was limited and there was no storage space unless the AS of A had access to an old rail served ESH, so if something were added to the display, something else would no doubt have to be taken away. Vigilants were destroyed on the Otterburn dem ground, two missiles to a pit, with 2 x 50 Lb boxes of modern RDX/TNT chips, 2 boxes x 14 x 1Lb WW2 CE/TNT blocks and a small amount of PE4 and det cord to make the lot go (maximum NEQ per pit was 140 Lb). We still had to run around with fire beaters to put out fires caused by burning Vigilant flares that were thrown clear. I have some photos taken by one of my instructors from that time (I was still an apprentice) and will try to find them to post them as part of this thread. I believe the dem ground was closed for an indefinite period from the 1980s after one of my colleagues was injured in the stomach by shrapnel after a secondary explosion in one of the pits, when he returned to them to check all had blown. Something in the pit was still burning after the blow and as he reached the pit it exploded.
As you say, SS11 was a difficult beast to control. I went on two firing camps where about 40 practice missiles were fired in each. The helicopter had to be pretty static for the firer to have much chance of a hit. There was only one man I saw who was much good. His colleagues weren't able to do very well but hopefully they were new to the job. It didn't help when a guidance wire from a fired missile got wrapped up in a helicopter's rotor.
I believe ENTAC was before my time, although it was still in service with other countries.
Unfortunately I don't believe I ever photographed a Shorland. I had never heard of it before I saw one for the first time. I remember them swaying as they went round corners, probably due to the weight of the armour. Reminded me of a Robin Reliant (I was once a passenger in the back of a Robin Reliant, driven at speed - difficult to believe it could be driven at speed I guess - an unforgettable experience).
Midge was still in service when I became an instructor, although it was not one of my systems. I remember that it had a cassette for loading a number of photoflash cartridges for use of the camera at night. I would guess that such cartridges are fairly rare. The AN USD part of AN USD 501 was the acronym for `Automatic Navigated Unmanned Surveillance Drone'.
