ELEY NOBEL Heastamp question

[Gspragge]

When was this heastamp in use. It appears to be post ww1, if I understand correctly what I have seen so far. But that is
not making sense on a copy of the U.S. 37x136 case which existed in large quantity. These were imported to the UK during ww1, likely made by PE&M, but the use to which they were put and the loadings have never been explained or identified fully beyond one ship with some converted gun barrels for subcaliber practice, not something I would think that would require thousands of cases.

 

[TonyE]

Eley became part of Explosive Trades Ltd in 1919, which was essentially the Nobel take over of the remaining British ammunition makers, Kynoch, Eley, KNM Co. and others (BMMCo had been part of Nobel since before the war). The headstamp therefore must be post war. I can't help with the use of the rounds though as it is outside my comfort zone!

Regards
TonyE

 

[millsbomber]

When was this heastamp in use. It appears to be post ww1, if I understand correctly what I have seen so far. But that is
not making sense on a copy of the U.S. 37x136 case which existed in large quantity. These were imported to the UK during ww1, likely made by PE&M, but the use to which they were put and the loadings have never been explained or identified fully beyond one ship with some converted gun barrels for subcaliber practice, not something I would think that would require thousands of cases.

Here is my example of this cartridge, i was told that it was a punt gun cartridge so after many years of owning it every one who said that its from a punt gun i then asked to see the gun, no gun was shown to me, then i was visiting a museum i cannot remember where and noticed a WW1 flare gun which would have easily chambered this case, maybe that's where we could look, i would not have wanted to fire it as it had a pistol grip and very long barrel ,,,,,,, Dave

 

[Gspragge]

This one is different and is a U.S. size 37x136 case, so for some kind of 1 Pr. 37mm projectile ( I presume) This is why I find it so odd at this time , post ww1 ?

Some kind of red plastic thing is in it --

Some flare that is, I think I would want to tie it to a tree and fire from a distance !

 

[TonyE]

As I said in my previous post.. Eley did not become part of Nobel (Explosive Trades Ltd) until 1919!!!!

Regards
TonyE

 

[Gspragge]

Yes that is the strange thing, who would need this then ? As far as I know the use of these died out except for the U.S. Coast Guard and some use of old PE&M stock in the Spanish Civil War.

 

[ydnum303]

Hi Gordon,

If the U.S. Coastguard was still using this gun post WW1, could Nobel have been given a contract for the supply of cases? The headstamp seems odd for a military one, as it was what was stamped on the base of the large calibre punt-gun cases for commercial sale.

Roger.

 

[millsbomber]

Hi Gordon,

If the U.S. Coastguard was still using this gun post WW1, could Nobel have been given a contract for the supply of cases? The headstamp seems odd for a military one, as it was what was stamped on the base of the large calibre punt-gun cases for commercial sale.

Roger.

Roger please show me the gun that fired the case i have added to this Post,,,,,,, Dave

 

[ydnum303]

Hi Dave,

I do not have a punt gun to show you, only wish I did! They are rare beasts today; the only one I have seen "in the flesh" was many years ago at Weller & Duffty's auction rooms in Birmingham, when it sold for a large sum of money. Surely there are pictures available on the internet? (Although must confess I haven't looked.)


For those who do not know what a punt gun is, they were large-bore (1, 1-1/8, 1-1/4, 1-1/2, and 2-inch) shotguns, with a long barrel and a short stumpy stock. They were mounted in a shallow flat-bottomed boat, and tied in with ropes to absorb the recoil. The earliest ones were muzzle loaders, but breech-loaders were soon developed. The gunner lay flat in the bottom of the boat, and gently paddled it towards any suitable flock of wildfowl until he was in range. I understand that when you fired it, you had to lift your knees off the bottom of the boat to avoid bruising.

The cartridges came in a variety of lengths; Kynoch catalogues from 1882 show several different types, the earliest being of all-brass construction (but with raised heads in an "A-base" style), all 6" in length. Later, the length could be got in 8".

The style of headstamp that Gordon shows usually appears on the cases with blue or tan paper bodies; I don't know if they were still making all-brass cases by this date, but if they were, could the case shown be a "made-up" example??

Roger.

 

[Gspragge]

It's odd for sure and commercial for some purpose. The U.S. Coastguard got their ammunition from the U.S. Navy (Likely the guns also) and there was lots of it. This one may never be solved ~

 

[millsbomber]

Great write up Gordon for other members, i was wildfowler once, i knew many of the punt gunners from the Swale area in the late 1970s and early 80s, mostly used the double 4 bore or double 8 bore and fired both barrels at once, i have seen larger breech loader single barrel guns with a made brass case and of cause the muzzle loaders, i was not fortunate enough to be able to go out with the fowler's as too young but my father has and he said when it fired he thought the punt was going to sink due to it going backwards and the gunner standing up to shoot at any of the remaining fleeing ducks....... Dave

 

[Gspragge]

This has turned out to be a non existent casing. The headstamp belongs to another case and images got mixed up !

So a 37x136 ELEY NOBEL does not and never did exist -- which in a way is good news - who needs another big mystery like this on top of all the usual endless unsolvable ones ---

 

[ydnum303]

Then it's a good job it wasn't April 1st...

 

[Gspragge]

Hmm we could invent a lot of things for that day - but they would then fall into other hands and lead to 200 more years of confusion !

The case turned out to be an export Bethlehem Steel Company case (made for them by the Toledo Brass & Copper Co.) in 1917. This would have had the BSC made 1 Pr base fused head. These were bought buy the French.
It is a good case if you have one of those projectiles without case.