German 75mm canister round for tank gun ?

[genkideskan]

Have checked all available sources and found nothing about that. Only source, the manual about Explosivstoff Gewichte 1944.
These source listed a KT (Kartaetsche) canister round with the same load as used in the HE.
We talk about the 75mm KWK - the early design with SHORT case.
So we have left 2 possible theories.
1. It was an early developement used in 1939 or earlier.
2. It was a late developement. May be the Wehrmacht learned from the Russians.
They used canisters in several guns and KWK.
But why for these obsolete gun? It was in use on half tracks, fortifications and second line vehicles.

The problem of mass infantry was known and a lot of trials where made in late 1944 using
"Splitterbeton" concrete with steel fragments as an additional filling.
The normal HE shell didnt produced enouth fragments with the substitute and reduced explosive charge. The cast shells simply dusted.
A method of casting small steel fragments directly from the converter by a water jet was developed. Sheet metal, cardboard and fabric canister where tested.

The known early canisters where made from 3 parts of pressed and drawn steel filled with lead balls and montane wax and a bottom disc made of aluminum. All rare metal and time consuming production.

Any informations or drawings about a german 75mm canister round ????

Other opinions

 

[marty_01]

Have checked all available sources and found nothing about that. Only source, the manual about Explosivstoff Gewichte 1944.
These source listed a KT (Kartaetsche) canister round with the same load as used in the HE.
We talk about the 75mm KWK - the early design with SHORT case.
So we have left 2 possible theories.
1. It was an early developement used in 1939 or earlier.
2. It was a late developement. May be the Wehrmacht learned from the Russians.
They used canisters in several guns and KWK.
But why for these obsolete gun? It was in use on half tracks, fortifications and second line vehicles.

The problem of mass infantry was known and a lot of trials where made in late 1944 using
"Splitterbeton" concrete with steel fragments as an additional filling.
The normal HE shell didnt produced enouth fragments with the substitute and reduced explosive charge. The cast shells simply dusted.
A method of casting small steel fragments directly from the converter by a water jet was developed. Sheet metal, cardboard and fabric canister where tested.

The known early canisters where made from 3 parts of pressed and drawn steel filled with lead balls and montane wax and a bottom disc made of aluminum. All rare metal and time consuming production.

Any informations or drawings about a german 75mm canister round ????

Other opinions

I had opened a thread about this here a few days ago. I also tossed the question at Zunder and pzgr40 over at the WK2 forum. Neither of them have ever seen a speciemen nor have they seen photos of, or line drawings of the thing.

In addition to some of the other sources already disscussed, it's not mentioned in Fritz Hahn's "Waffen Und Geheimwaffen, 1939 - 1945". Hahn's work provides KwK, and Stuk ammunition expenditure figures for at least 1943 - 1945. I'm not saying Hahn is an exhaustive study on ammunition expenditure. But it is interesting in the sense that he does provide figures for smoke (Nebelgr.) projectile expenditures. Nebelgr. projectile expenditure being less than 0.5% of the total ammunition expenditure by Kwk\Stuk L24 & L48 guns. The point being if Hahn bothered to report expenditures for a projectiles that's less than 0.5% of the total ammunition expenditure it would seem to imply -- at least to me -- that kwk\stuk L24 canister was either:

1) A service round but was so extremely rare as to be completely off the radar in terms of Hahn reporting quantities expended.
2) Never a service round but was perhaps an experimental round and thus didnt make it into Hahn's figures for service ammunition expenditures..

The 75mmL24 canister round is mentioned in secondary sources written long after the war. I think one being an obscure artile written by M.Diehl for a magazine called AFV G2 back in the 1970's. However, I don't recall seeing it mentioned in anything by T.Jentz or W.Spielberger.

 

[Tmine35]

An interesting detail that mixes at least my thoughts is what I already mentioned under the other thread that "Geschossringbuch", dated 1939-43 shows detailed drawings of canister shells in 77, 105 and 150mm calibers. ( I have never seen any of them in real life either but drawings are there ).
If these were in production, why not 75mm which was one of German main artillery calibers?

 

[marty_01]

An interesting detail that mixes at least my thoughts is what I already mentioned under the other thread that "Geschossringbuch", dated 1939-43 shows detailed drawings of canister shells in 77, 105 and 150mm calibers. ( I have never seen any of them in real life either but drawings are there ).
If these were in production, why not 75mm which was one of German main artillery calibers?

Like I say, a drawing or photo or production figures of the actual round would be great, and is in fact what I am looking for.

My thoughts on the Geschossringbuch sectional drawing of canister for field artillery is along the lines of; If these bits of evidence are so easy to find for these common artillery calibers, why can't we just as easily find similar drawings, photos, etc, for the KwK\Stuk canister round? If they were in common use I personally believe there should be multiple primary references available that discuss the particulars of these specific 75mmL24 canister projectiles. For example I can look in my own references and find four or five primary source documents\manuals that detail aspects of 75mmL24 smoke ammunition. Yet this projectiles production and use was pretty rare relative to either spgr or pzgr. Same again for APCR ammunition used by various KwK and Stuk guns (not the L24 of course) in the sense that production and use of APCR was pretty rare relative to spgr and pzgr, yet I can easily lay hands on a large number of primary source documents and field manuals detailing just about ever aspect of APCR projectiles.

We can all speculate on the subject of 75mmL24 canister. My point is there additional information anyone knows of that would allow us to move beyond speculation on this particular projectile (aside from the explosive handbuch I already mentioned on the previous thread).

 

[genkideskan]

There is annother hint in the H.Dv 454/5 from 1936.
These manual mentioned about a cylindrical canister.
Bottom and top closed by two aluminum disks. The
lead balls fixed with plaster.
The different types of projectiles where handled in
this manual.

 

[marty_01]

There is annother hint in the H.Dv 454/5 from 1936.
These manual mentioned about a cylindrical canister.
Bottom and top closed by two aluminum disks. The
lead balls fixed with plaster.
The different types of projectiles where handled in
this manual.

Interesting find Genkideskan. This correlates well with your theory that these projectiles may have been a pre-1939. Moreover kanister does not appear in the Dez. 1940 Munition handbuch for (L24) 7,5cm Kw.K und Stu.G. 7,5cm K.

I mentioned an article above by M.Diehl written back in the 1970's. Something he did for an old magazine publication called AFV G2. As I recall -- and I will confirm and repost this evening -- Diehl mentioned that the case shot projectile for Kwk\Stuk 75L24 contained 960 balls.

 

[marty_01]

Just a quick followup to my previous post. M. Diehl in his AFV G2 Article "Consumer's Guide to German 7.5cm Ammunition" (Feb 1973) indicates that the Kt.KwK. projectile contained 960 x 9mm Steel Balls. He lists the weight of the projectile as 6.7Kg.

He provides several references for his article. Among them being the standard US Army post war TM on German Ordnance. This -- as some of you already know -- contains no reference to 75mm canister. He also lists the US Army's Small Unit Action Series on the Russian front. It's been awhile sense I have read this series of studies, but I dont recall any reference to German canister.

His last two references include:

Walter Stutz, "Schiesslehre"

Rudolf Lusar, "Die deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des 2. Weltkrieges und Ihre Weiterentwicklung"

I've never seen either of these ref.s. Perhaps they provide some additional clues on 75mmL24 canister.

 

[marty_01]

Is there any evidence of canister ammunition being produced for the German 7,5cm Infantry Gun(howitzer) 18 during WWII?

 

[genkideskan]

If I will have some more time I will check the manuals about arsenal tools.
May be there will be some gauges or something else for 75mm canisters.

 

[greif]

In the firing table H.Dv.119/320 for the 7,5 cm Kwk, there is a drawing of a canister round, the 7,5 cm Kt Patr Kwk. (Kt = Karttsche = canister). The drawing is dated 6.7.44, so obviously it is a late development.
Unfortunately these booklets give no detailed information about the construction of the projectiles, the only thing one can see is that this canister round was equipped with a driving band.

(With thanks to MTM, Landhorst, Netherlands)

 

[marty_01]

Excellent! Thanks to you Greif and to Landhorst for finding this information.

 

[marty_01]

Are your sure that's a driving band? Why have a driving band on Canister? Isn't the caseing for canister shot supposed to disintigrate in-barrel? Unless maybe the thing actually functions like schrapnel rather than canister? Perhaps it's scrapnel with a super fast fuze setting for canister like application?

The truncated ogive is also interesting.

yes it would be nice to see the inards -- if it has a base fuze and bursting charge it would tell us a great deal about how the thing functions.

in addition, if your friend has the schusstafeln for the projectile, this would also tell us alot. Moreover if there are firing tables for it -- elevation settings for associated ranges as well as dispersion, it would suggest its shrapnel-ish rather than canister-ish.

 

[genkideskan]

Greif thats really something. Thanks for sharing.
The driving band is a gas seal and may be rise the
porte. Following the dates on the case it was
made in 1943 and Greif is right to think its a late
project.
Marty is right - the shooting table data would be
most interesting.

Thanks a lot