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Help Please with Fuze Identification

J

jaypee

Member
I believe this to be a Turkish fuze (see photo). I'd like to think it's from the Gallipoli Campaign but have my doubts as it has the two arabic inscriptions, one on each side of the nose cone rather than having both inscriptions on the tip as have other so called 'Gallipoli' fuzes I've seen. The photo shows the shorter of the two inscriptions, which I have not seen on other fuzes. The longer inscription, on the other side of the fuze, I have seen before both on fuzes and in a photo of a Krupps field gun. It was inscribed on the breech. The fuze has the number, 2468 in roman numerals stamped on the side of the steel base ring and a number, 3 on the underside. I have managed to decipher the arabic numerals on the timing ring but not the inscriptions on the nose cone. Any help with identification and/or translation would be appreciated.

Turkish (2).jpg​
 
Interesting fuze, can you show the other inscription please? You should be right with your assumptions Krupp & Turkey.
 
Thank you for your reply, Alpini. As requested, here is a photo of the inscription on the other side of the nose cone.

There is an error in my original post. The number 2468 on the steel base ring and the number 3 on the underside are in european digits, not roman numerals!

Turkish (1).jpg​
 
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On this side the markings are clearer, the only thing which I can read is the calibre of "7,5 cm". The 2468 is the serial number of the projectile - it was stamped on the projectile body too.

Can you also show a picture of the fuzes bottom side? It would proof if it was made by Krupp (I wonder why it is differently stamped compared to all other Turkish Krupp fuzes I have seen).
 
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As requested, here is a photo of the underside. The '3' can be seen at 3 o'clock. Is it possible to estimate the date of the fuze from the serial number? I have seen photos of so called Gallipoli fuzes i.e. 1916, with inscriptions on the tip of the nose cone, which have serial numbers in the high hundreds and mid one thousands.

Turkish (5).jpg
 
Thank you for the picture, now it all makes sense! It's not a Krupp fuze, this one is made by "Rheinische Metallwaren- und Maschinenfabrik" short "Rheinmetall".

Sadly it is not possible to find an exact date. Same applies for turkish Krupp fuzes. The serial number would be much to short to represent a date. Factories like Krupp and Rheinmetall produced several thousands of such projectiles each week.
 
Hello Alpini,
can you show please differences between Krupp and Rheinmetall fuze?
best regards
 
Does the fact that this fuze was made by Rheinmetall and not Krupp lessen the likelihood of it having been used at Gallipoli in 1916?
 
@Fert: In the case of this fuze the percussion element in the base of the fuze is what makes it an Rheinmetall fuze. I can't show the difference for turkish fuzes as I don't have the Rheinmetall type. But I can show the difference for example on a bulgarian fuze with the same shape if that helps?

@jaypee: I think alone the fact that your fuze comes from Great Britain much increases the chance that someone brought it back from Gallipoli. These fuzes were made from the 1900's until end of the war (the last ones were made from different material combinations without brass). Some of them also found there way to western Europe through the italian turkish war 1911/12.
 
Alpini said:
@Fert: In the case of this fuze the percussion element in the base of the fuze is what makes it an Rheinmetall fuze. I can't show the difference for turkish fuzes as I don't have the Rheinmetall type. But I can show the difference for example on a bulgarian fuze with the same shape if that helps?
Click to expand...

yes please.
best regards
 
Both of the following fuzes are almost identical and were used by bulgaria (including the same style 80 hectometer scale). They are also identical to the turkish Rheinmetall fuze shown here and the usual turkish Krupp fuzes which we already discussed in several other threads.

As we can see the basic operating principle is the same - both are using a powder pellet which burns away and releases the percussion mechanics. The percussion mechanics of both fuzes was a invention of Rheinmetall and used by both companies. But it was produced in two different ways by each factory. Left in all pictures it's the Rheinmetall type and right the Krupp type.

By the lack of a good diagram of the Rheinmetall type I show a fuze with different shape than the turkish fuze of this thread.

Typical for Krupp fuzes is also a small locking ring above the two time rings which Rheinmetall fuzes usually don't have, but it isn't a 100% safe identification characteristic as there are also a few Krupp fuzes without this locking ring (especially turkish ones).

PS: Today I had a little talk with a turkish man about the translation of old osmanic text in arabic letters. He said that only very few turks can read this text today. I asked him how many of 1000 people he thinks can read this text. His answer took me any remaining hope to find such a person which could translate the markings on the fuzes for me. He said: "I guess it's one of a billion people who can read it - only very specialized experts like some few university-professors"
 

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Alpini,

In the above diagram, the thread of the right hand fuze is shown as 50 mm x 1/8" (8 TPI 9Threads Per Inch)). Do you know the reasoning behind this? Also, any idea as to the threadform? This is not the first instance I've encountered of German ordnance using mixed units and so far, I have been unable to find an explanation.

TimG
 
Hello Tim,

I recognized the same since some years because I turned such threads on my lathe many, many times.

This M50x1/8" is the standard Krupp thread for T&P fuzes. And your are totally right with the mixed units. Until the end of 1st WW all german military threads had imperial pitches with a metrical diameter. Germany started to introduce the metrical system in the 1860's. In my opinion the reason for these mixed threads is, that most of the lathes which existed at this time were not capable to turn metrical pitches. The metrical diameters could be calculated from the inch scales on the lathes but for metrical pitches new gears and/or new leadscrews were needed.

An other interesting example is the prussian standard thread for percussion fuzes (1861-1880's). The fuze has an official thread diameter of 24,9 mm (that may be a 1 inch thread minus some tolerance) but the thread pitch given is:

25,4 mm
----------
.....10
10 ---
.....11

*added the points just for layout reasons - the forum is automatically removing spaces :-(

which would be 10,91 tpi...

I have absolutely no idea what may be the reason for such a strange thread. I hope the introduction of the metrical system in Great Britain did not end with the same confusion...
 
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Alpini,

Thank you very much. If 'Imperial' lathes were the problem, it makes you wonder why they didn't introduce a pair of 127/50 change wheels into the gear train which will give you metric pitches.

Do you know the threadform they were using? The majority, if not all German primers were using Whitworth (55 deg.) up to 1945.

As for bizarre thread requirements see attached

TimG

IMG_0348.jpg
 
TimG said:
As for bizarre thread requirements see attached


View attachment 115745
Click to expand...


There were some legacy reasons as to use of Whitworth threads by Germany. Great Britain had sold machine tools to the Germans in the 19th and early 20th Centuries and many threads adopted by Germany were standard BSW, e.g. the thread on the egg and Kugel grenades was 1/2" Whitworth (12tpi).

As for the 14.083 tpi British fuze, it was also legacy - of a worn lathe apparently, as described by Trench Warfare Engineer Mr A. A. Rowse at a TW conference in 1916; relevant page herewith:




Tom.
 

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Tom,

Excellent, thank you. I must draw that file next time I'm there, he speaks a lot of sense.

"And the joys which await the manufacturers in the inspection stage are too full and complete for anticipation."

TimG
 
TimG said:
Do you know the threadform they were using? The majority, if not all German primers were using Whitworth (55 deg.) up to 1945.
Click to expand...

the Krupp thread has standard 55 deg. but some prussian fuze threads have exotic angles like 60°, 70°, 71° 56' 18", 76° 52' 27"...
 
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