Help with .303 headstamps

[trailbiker]

Having trouble correctly identifying some .303 headstamps. Can anybody help, or point me in the right direction of a good web site ? Have looked at several sites, but the results seem to contradictory.
They are :- E 18 I; R17L VII P; and So 68.
It's the last letter of the first two I'm not sure about. I believe these stand for incendiary, and practice rounds. Is this correct ?
The last one is modern, but I don't know what makers mark "So" is.
Many thanks for any help, Richard.

 

[MissingSomething]

Photos of the headstamps would be helpful...

E 18 I = Eley 1918 (I=???)

R17L VII P = Royal Laboratories 1917 Mark VII (P= armour piercing)

So 68 = (So??) maybe Finland 1968

The Tony's on here are much more gooder with .303's headstamps and will be able to correct me and shed some more light....

 

[trailbiker]

I thought the "P" stood for armour piercing, but somewhere else on the net it was listed as a practice round.
The one marked "So" is too badly corroded to make a good photo so can't help with that. The letter S is a capital Letter and the o is lower case but at the top right of the S, like a degree sign.
I've put three photos of the E 18 I cases; hope I've done it correctly ! They are all badly corroded and most of the case has gone. They also have 3 holes in the primer. Other ones I have, there are only 2. They also have a different shape at the base; don't know if this is significant.

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

.303 or 45 auto ?

Well whatever they are they are certainly NOT .303 as they are "rimless" and not "rimmed".
My guess is that they are in fact .45 auto rounds albeit very old and the reason I am thinking .45 is that some Imported rounds of early manufacture had 3 "flash" holes as opposed to either one (Boxer) or two like "Berdan" as used on .303 cartridges made in the British Empire !
Any chance of some measurements please ?

 

[Falcon]

Those are not .303 or .45 ACP, they are actually .455 Webley & Scott Auto. The .455 Webley
& Scott automatic pistol was used during WW1, but was approved for air and naval use
only. The three flash holes is a dead give-away for this round.

 

[MissingSomething]

Those are not .303 or .45 ACP, they are actually .455 Webley & Scott Auto. The .455 Webley
& Scott automatic pistol was used during WW1, but was approved for air and naval use
only. The three flash holes is a dead give-away for this round.

I agree with Falcon on this.... those pics are of .455 Eley (webley automatic).

The headstamp is E 18 I = Eley 1918 Mark I

As for the other cases.... if they are not .303 then the headstamp info that I gave you may not be correct.

To clean the case that has the "So" on it you may be able to use a green "scrub bug" used for dishes to clean it up to make it more readable.

 

[doctor]

Hi
E Eley Bros Limited, London

 

[trailbiker]

The dia of the E 18 I is .468. Thats on the best one that isn't too corroded.
The mention of issue to the airforce would fit in with the fact they are from a WW1 airfield.
So, am I right in thinking the fact that they are short isn't to do with that they are badly corroded, its because they were short cartridges to start off with ?
Also I assume they are called rimless because the rim is the same diameter as the case; am I right ? Thanks for all your help guys, I'm certainly learning loads.
As far as the "So" case is concerned, it is quite clearly marked looking at it with a spyglass, but won't show up in a photo. I was thinking, would I be correct in saying that this would be a 7.62 rather than a .303. I don't know how to tell the difference, especially as the bullet is badly damaged. I assume the diameter of the bullet gives the size. Please excuse my ignorance as I'm rather new to all this. I didn't realise there was so much to know !
Thanks again, Richard.

 

[TonyE]

.303

Re-affirm what falcon says. The E 18 are mark I .455 Webley Self Loading rounds.

The R17L P is a Mark VIIP armour piercing round and if in good condition very desirable.

The VIIP was the first type of true AP introduced to British service in 1916, although the VIIS (which was a ball Mark VII bullet with the aluminium tip replaced by one of steel) had been used earlier.

The VIIP was also known as the Kynoch AP (KAP) and had a .219 inch diameter core with a stepped heel. The VIIW which followed had a .250 diameter core and remained in service until the end of WW2 (as the W Mark I).

Regards
TonyE

 

[trailbiker]

Unfortunately there is only one armour piercing case and its in pretty poor condition. Is there anyway of telling an armour piercing bullet from any other .303 ? We now have a whole bag of .303 bullets and some are obviosly different to each other. About 50% are 3-4 mm longer than the rest, which have a groove around them. Do I assume correctly that the grooved ones are later versions that were held in the case by three crimps, and the other longer ones were just gripped by friction ?
Thanks, Richard

 

[TonyE]

.303

The most obvious way to tell a .303 bullet is by the fact that it is magnetic, but that can be deceiving, as there were ball bullets with steel clad envelopes as well. However, these were only in WW2, so if you know all your bullets are WWI then the magnet test works.

If these are coming from the site I think they are, I already in touch with Russell and will be visiting in the near future.

The bullet cannelure was introduced right at the beginning of the life of the .303 and the 3 x 120 degree stab crimp was normal right through until about 1944. The longer bullets could be tracers. Do they have a very rounded base?

Regards
TonyE

 

[Falcon]

The "So" is Sako A. B., (Suojeluskuntain Ase-je Konepa ja Oy), Riihimaki, Finland

 

[303Gunner]

Those are not .303 or .45 ACP, they are actually .455 Webley & Scott Auto. The .455 Webley
& Scott automatic pistol was used during WW1, but was approved for air and naval use
only.

Heres the carton label from some 1918 .455 Self-loading Pistol Ammunition.

 

[TonyE]

Those are not .303 or .45 ACP, they are actually .455 Webley & Scott Auto. The .455 Webley
& Scott automatic pistol was used during WW1, but was approved for air and naval use
only. The three flash holes is a dead give-away for this round.

Not actually true, for two reasons.

First, there was no "Air" approval back then as the Royal Flyng Corps was part of the army and the RNAS was effectively part of the Royal Navy. The category of "Air" was not introduced until after the formaton of the Royal Air Force in April 1918.

When the .455" S.L. was introduced in LoC 16406 of April 1912 it was for Naval Service, but LoC 17316 of 26 April 1915 changed the category to "C" for Common to both services. This was because a special version of the pistol had been adopted by the Royal Horse Artillery.

The Webley S.L. pistol was never formally adopted by the RFC, although some were undoubtedly used, the Colt Government Model in the same calibre being preferred. Even after the formation of the RAF further orders for the .455 S.L. Colt were placed and that pistol continued in service right through to WW2.

Regards
TonyE