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Interesting German Fuze
- Thread starter jvollenberg
- Start date
Its not a variation on this is it?
Just guessing.
Dave.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=511242111
Just guessing.
Dave.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=511242111
No idea ... the museum has very little on the history of some of their items.
Joe
Joe
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
It is a dummy fuze : Ex= Exerzier=manipulating. The marking on the fuze in german is : Exerzier Raketen Zünder fuer 15 cm Nebelgranaten = Manipulating Rocket fuze for 15cm smoke shells. The fuze sold at gunbroker is another one. I asume that because of the "R" it is for a rocket-assisted shell, but I'm not shure. The lower line reads: "Roehre u. EKZ"(Einheits-Kanonen-Zuender" = Tube and generalized cannon fuze
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Well, 15 cm Gr 19 was generally a common artillery shell. Geschossringbuch covers its smoke variant as the 15 cm Gr 19 Kh, with AZ 23 Nb fuse. The rocket assisted shell was designated as the 15 cm R Gr 19.
I'm not too sure if the letter R is for "Raketen" in this case...
I also think, the EKZ could also mean Empfindlicher Kopfzuender = sensitive nose fuse.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Yes, Empfindlicher Kopf Zuender may even be a better possibility. But, if R doesn't stand for Rocket, what could it possibly stand for ? I just checked my archive. I'm shure that R stands for Rocket. This 15cm shell is the one with which all the trials with the electric fuze have been done. The name of the shell is "R.-Gr. 19". It's length is 804mm compared with 615mm for the normal "15cm Gr. 19". The firing distance for the rocket assisted shell was 19000m. Because of the ionised gas of the rocket exhaust they had big problems with the "El.A.Z." fuze and then the "El.A.Z.m.B." was developed. This shell was never really introduced also about 25000 were manufactured. It seems that this "range extended 15cm shell" was used extensively not only to test electric fuzes, but also the above shown fuze. Another fuze, which worked apparently satisfactory, was the "Bd.Z.R."="Base Fuze Rocket(assisted)" which only ignited the rocket propellant. For ranging shots with earial bursts the "Dopp.Z. S/90" was used. Another fuze for this shell is the "K.Z. 28 P"= Kopfzuender 28 Pressstoff. To get an idea what this shell could do, here some data : range 18200m, flight time 68,3 sec, final velocity 322m/sec, dispersal: 224m length, 40m horizontal and 390m in height. The shell was fired with the 8th charge and had a muzzlevelocity of 505m/sec with a shell weight of 45,1 kg.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
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Hi Joe,
You can also check the files ICE-JV-105 and ICE-JV-106.
Jeff posted some before here a while ago.
Similar principle of stand-of.
The designation Nb makes me think about dispersion of coloured smoke (or chemical agent) before the projectile hits the ground.
Also the name Sondergeschoss - Special projectile is suspicious.
Bob
You can also check the files ICE-JV-105 and ICE-JV-106.
Jeff posted some before here a while ago.
Similar principle of stand-of.
The designation Nb makes me think about dispersion of coloured smoke (or chemical agent) before the projectile hits the ground.
Also the name Sondergeschoss - Special projectile is suspicious.
Bob
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
I have been thinking about this. Meanwhile I believe that Ex. means experimental. In german usage Exerzier for Manipulating, does not exist, like in swiss usage. So this is not a dummy fuze, but an experimental fuze for the 15cm rocket-assisted/ range extended smoke shell. "Nb" for NEBEL in german usage mostly means covering smoke which at that time meant HC, liquid acid, phosphorous and oil (navy). The word NEBEL translates to FOG. The other word for smoke in german is RAUCH (Smoke) which is mostly used with coloured smoke. Apparently this 15cm rocket-assisted shell has been used as a test-bed for quite a few different fuzes.
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Ex is for Exerzier for sure and was commonly used. Experimenal would be Versuchs- according to German terminology.
As far as R-for-Rakete is concerned, I don't see much sense in a rocket assisted smoke shell. Long range, huge dispersion and small payload would make it useless.
As far as R-for-Rakete is concerned, I don't see much sense in a rocket assisted smoke shell. Long range, huge dispersion and small payload would make it useless.
Ex is for Exerzier for sure and was commonly used. Experimenal would be Versuchs- according to German terminology.
As far as R-for-Rakete is concerned, I don't see much sense in a rocket assisted smoke shell. Long range, huge dispersion and small payload would make it useless.
same opinion like me... And there is another fuze with a designation like this: The "Ex.R.Z.2.f.l.W.M." = "Exerzier Rauchzünder 2 für leichte Wurfminen" ~ "Practise smoke fuze 2 for light mortar shell"
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
I don't know of any "Exerzier" munitions, besides small arms cartridges in WW2 german usage. In the GDR, after WW2, they accepted russian usage and there I know different dummy munitions, mostly gunrounds, which apparently were used to test and show the functioning/loading of guns on the ground without endangering anyone. I do not know how these were named. All these only have the outside shape of the real thing and never contain any parts. If you know of any "Exerzier" munition / fuzes in WW2 german usage, I would be very interested to hear details from you. One never stops learning in this field. I admit that a smoke round with such a large dispersal, is not what one really would strive for, but the "R. Gr. 15cm" was an existing munition. PzGr40 has a very nice sectioning of this round published in another forum.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo Alpini,
is that a WW1 or WW2 fuze and where can I find a description ? "Practise" in english I would translate to "Üb" in german.
regards,
Bellifortis.
is that a WW1 or WW2 fuze and where can I find a description ? "Practise" in english I would translate to "Üb" in german.
regards,
Bellifortis.
normally german "Ex" marked fuzes (there are a lot of them around from 1880's until modern times) are not intended for firing. The Ex.R.Z.2.f.l.W.M. is one exception because it was used with practise 7,6 cm Mortar shells. It's like a failure in designation because it normally should have the name "Üb. R.Z......". The fuze is from the 1920's (Reichswehr).
If the long Ex. fuze we are discussing about is indended for firing I don't know. Because this fuze is hand stamped and it is never discovered "in the wild" I guess it was in experimental or not approved state or used for chemical shells. I think I have also heard about this fuze in connection with chemical shells, but where?.
If the long Ex. fuze we are discussing about is indended for firing I don't know. Because this fuze is hand stamped and it is never discovered "in the wild" I guess it was in experimental or not approved state or used for chemical shells. I think I have also heard about this fuze in connection with chemical shells, but where?.
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Small off-topic...
And finally a fragment of the Zusamenstellung der Explosivstoffgewichte fuer deutsche Munition, April 1944 - it can be clearly seen, 15 cm Gr 19 Nb is not a rocket assisted shell, as opposed to the 15 cm R Gr 19 (in the latter case the last column, 5800, is the fuel weight).
Looking at the description on the fuse, I think, R could be for Roehre in this case. Also we have something like Exerzier Roehre-Zuender fuer 15 cm Granate 19 Nebel.
Regards
Grzesio
For example 8,8 cm RPzGr 4319 Ex, 8,8 cm RPzBGr 4329 Ex, 8,8 cm R PzB Gr 4999 Ex, 21 cm WGr 42 Ex, Ex 28 cm Wk Spr or Ex 32 cm Wk Fl rockets, PC 1000 RS Ex bomb, Exerzierpatrone der 8,8 cm Flak (Ladepatrone) and (Zuenderstellpatrone) artillery rounds...
And finally a fragment of the Zusamenstellung der Explosivstoffgewichte fuer deutsche Munition, April 1944 - it can be clearly seen, 15 cm Gr 19 Nb is not a rocket assisted shell, as opposed to the 15 cm R Gr 19 (in the latter case the last column, 5800, is the fuel weight).
Looking at the description on the fuse, I think, R could be for Roehre in this case. Also we have something like Exerzier Roehre-Zuender fuer 15 cm Granate 19 Nebel.
Regards
Grzesio
Attachments
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Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Alpini,
I found even 2 Ex fuzes you mention in a 1923 manual meanwhile. As you say, they should be cxalled Ueb normally. In the Ringbuch fuer Zünder Part 1 of WW2 vintage I only found 1 fuze, very similar, on Blatt 36 the "A.Z.f.m.Ex.M.R.". I don't even know what this stands for. On Blatt 19 and 20 is pictured the "A.Z.f.Sondergeschoss" which looks very much like the fuze we are talking about above. I also wonder how this long fuze (450mm) is combined with what type of shell for what reason. What is meant with "Sondergeschoss"?
Grzesio,
thank you for showing the different Ex models, which I all don't know. I just checked through some technical manuals myself and only found Ex-models of small arms cartridges and 3,7cm. Which manuals contain the other Ex models you mention, especially the "Exerzier Roehre-Zuender fuer 15cm Granate 19 Nebel"? Do you have a sectional drawing and description of this fuze which I also never heard about ? Like Alpini also mentioned in his last post, Exerzier munitions, as can be seen with the small arms models, normally do not contain anything inside, they just imitate the outer shape of the real thing. The 3 models I mention above seem to be an exeption in the normal naming system. I wonder how the models you mention are made up.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
I found even 2 Ex fuzes you mention in a 1923 manual meanwhile. As you say, they should be cxalled Ueb normally. In the Ringbuch fuer Zünder Part 1 of WW2 vintage I only found 1 fuze, very similar, on Blatt 36 the "A.Z.f.m.Ex.M.R.". I don't even know what this stands for. On Blatt 19 and 20 is pictured the "A.Z.f.Sondergeschoss" which looks very much like the fuze we are talking about above. I also wonder how this long fuze (450mm) is combined with what type of shell for what reason. What is meant with "Sondergeschoss"?
Grzesio,
thank you for showing the different Ex models, which I all don't know. I just checked through some technical manuals myself and only found Ex-models of small arms cartridges and 3,7cm. Which manuals contain the other Ex models you mention, especially the "Exerzier Roehre-Zuender fuer 15cm Granate 19 Nebel"? Do you have a sectional drawing and description of this fuze which I also never heard about ? Like Alpini also mentioned in his last post, Exerzier munitions, as can be seen with the small arms models, normally do not contain anything inside, they just imitate the outer shape of the real thing. The 3 models I mention above seem to be an exeption in the normal naming system. I wonder how the models you mention are made up.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
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Hi,
Information on the Panzerschreck, 21 cm WGr and 28/32 cm Wk Ex rockets comes from respective manuals - D 1864/6, D 444/2132 and D 444/2839. I have only secondary sources for the other ones.
"Exerzier Roehre-Zuender fuer 15cm Granate 19 Nebel" was just my trial do decipher the Ex RZ f. 15 cm Gr 19 Nb abbreviation, so I have literally nothing on the fuse, while I believe it - or rather its live variant - was built in the exact fashion as the Sondergeschoss fuse shown in the Geschossringbuch, i.e. EKZ impact nose fuse with Sprengkapsel Duplex, armed by centrifugal force, placed on top of the "pipe" and a basic fuse (Grdzdr = Grundzunder?) armed by rotation as well, with firing pin driven by gas pressure from the nose fuse. An interesting feature found on the Sondergeschoss fuse is an additional centrifugal safety, apparently absent from the sectioned St Z f FH Gr Nb (Stangezuender fuer Feldhaubitze Granate Nebel?) although some parts may be missing from the chamber at the very bottom.
Regards
Grzesio
Information on the Panzerschreck, 21 cm WGr and 28/32 cm Wk Ex rockets comes from respective manuals - D 1864/6, D 444/2132 and D 444/2839. I have only secondary sources for the other ones.
"Exerzier Roehre-Zuender fuer 15cm Granate 19 Nebel" was just my trial do decipher the Ex RZ f. 15 cm Gr 19 Nb abbreviation, so I have literally nothing on the fuse, while I believe it - or rather its live variant - was built in the exact fashion as the Sondergeschoss fuse shown in the Geschossringbuch, i.e. EKZ impact nose fuse with Sprengkapsel Duplex, armed by centrifugal force, placed on top of the "pipe" and a basic fuse (Grdzdr = Grundzunder?) armed by rotation as well, with firing pin driven by gas pressure from the nose fuse. An interesting feature found on the Sondergeschoss fuse is an additional centrifugal safety, apparently absent from the sectioned St Z f FH Gr Nb (Stangezuender fuer Feldhaubitze Granate Nebel?) although some parts may be missing from the chamber at the very bottom.
Regards
Grzesio
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Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo Grzesio,
meanwhile I checked some manuals and it seems I oversaw before, that nearly every munition was also produced as a dummy Ex-model. It's strange, that I never saw an item like that in 25 years. They were supposed to be marked with a red ring, same like "Ueb"-models. Thank you for explaining the make up of the fuze we discuss. What do you think is the reason for this construction of 2 fuzes in tandem connected by a tube. The only reason I can imagine is in a "Haubengranate" where you have a long empty space inside the "Haube" between shelltip and grenade proper, but this is mostly done with armour-piercing shells and not smoke. Do you know what the "Sondergeschoss" looked like ? In which manual can I find the "St.Z.f.FH. Gr. Nb" and a description of the shell ?
regards,
Bellifortis.
meanwhile I checked some manuals and it seems I oversaw before, that nearly every munition was also produced as a dummy Ex-model. It's strange, that I never saw an item like that in 25 years. They were supposed to be marked with a red ring, same like "Ueb"-models. Thank you for explaining the make up of the fuze we discuss. What do you think is the reason for this construction of 2 fuzes in tandem connected by a tube. The only reason I can imagine is in a "Haubengranate" where you have a long empty space inside the "Haube" between shelltip and grenade proper, but this is mostly done with armour-piercing shells and not smoke. Do you know what the "Sondergeschoss" looked like ? In which manual can I find the "St.Z.f.FH. Gr. Nb" and a description of the shell ?
regards,
Bellifortis.