Odd composite 47x131R case - where was this manufactured?

[ogreve]

Hi guys,

Those who know me and/or my collection probably know that I take a particular liking in the 47x131R calibre as long as they were manufactured or used by the Japanese.
Consequently, from time to time I acquire several odd specimens in that calibre.
Last Sunday saw the arrival of a few neat specimens, all of which came directly out of Japan.
One case has me very puzzled as I've never seen something quite like it in this calibre before: it is a composite case consisting of three parts. It has a steel head, which is fixed to a brass base, which in turn is fixed to the rest of the case.
Unfortunately when I got it, the base was very rusty. I blasted it with very fine grain "glass pearl beads" and it cleaned up easily enough but just like I feared the rust left almost no headstamp data to be discerned. The condition of the base was better than I expected still though, and it doesn't appear to have had much of a headstamp, but I could be mistaken of course. It appears as if under the primer 1 or 2 markings were present.
The first one is half clear and looks like it might be an 'O' or a 'C' or a small circle with something on the inside. It looks as if there might be a very faint marking on the inside, somewhat resembling an 'x'.
The second one is much fainter and I'm not sure if it's a marking or a blemish. It looks like it could be an 'I'.
If both are markings and if they are letters, they could read something like 'CI' or 'OI', but.... they could perhaps also have read 'CF'. If they indeed read 'CF' it would almost certainly be a British case.
Do note that despite the fact that many 47x131R cases exist with both Japanese markings as well as the British (later applied) 'Cf' marking, ALL of those specimens that I have seen were all sourced from the UK. None of the specimens I've seen so far in Japan has the 'Cf' marking on it. Nonetheless, the case could have been captured by the Japanese or it could even at some point in time have been imported by some collector. There is no telling for sure.

Probably the safest way to try to establish the country of origin is purely by looking at the construction of the case. Does anyone recognise this as British construction, or possibly of some other nation? If not, the reverse situation would also be helpful, by which I mean that if it's possible to say e.g. that it's "definitely not British" or so, that also helps me.
Who can tell me anything about this case in particular and/or in more general about the composite construction of other cases that look similar to this one?

I've added a few pictures. They are quick snapshots taken with my iPhone, and those of the headstamp were taken through a large loupe. Sorry for the "less-than-optimal" image quality. The markings are difficult to make out. I've added a few headstamp shots from slightly different angles. I hope that helps to get a better idea of the markings.

Anyone any ideas?

Thanks in advance and cheers,
Olafo

 

[Gspragge]

It's a Hotchkiss pattern, I only know of these being made either by Winchester under licence or by Hotchkiss Paris.
Not likely a Winchester in that size. Not to be confused with the coiled case phased out around 1889 by this kind (though the U.S. Navy was still buying those in 1895) This is from "The Hotchkiss Company in 1889" . I imagine these were
made obsolete as the price of drawn cases dropped in the early 1890s. Did Japan use these ? Depends when they first
obtained 47mm Hotchkiss guns - if mid to later 1890s, likely not - they would have gotten drawn cases like the 1900 EOC 47mm types.


If by chance you decide not to keep it ~ :tinysmile_twink_t:

 

[ogreve]

Hi Gordon,

Thanks a million for that answer, that's dynamite!
So it seems we can pretty safely limit the manufacture of that kind of casing down to only two candidate companies and we can probably also limit the era in which they were (most likely) used to up to +/- 1890.
As for the Japanese usage: you or may not have seen the articles I've been writing on early Japanese ammunition. If not, I think you'll find the ones on early IJN ammunition particularly interesting. They can be downloaded in full from my website http://www.japaneseammunition.com under the "Articles" menu.
The one on early IJN ammo was split in two parts and has been published in full in the Dutch ECRA (NVBMB) magazine. I think it has currently not yet been completely published in the English ECRA magazine, but I'd have to check. It can be downloaded in full here: http://www.japaneseammunition.com/start.php?main_cat=31&sub_cat=280&access=view&exp_sub_cat=280
The one on early IJA ammo will soon be published too.

In the one on early IJN ammo I included a very substantial amount of information and findings that were based on the 47x131R Hotchkiss calibre. I think you will particularly enjoy that part, as well as the information on the 37x94R calibre (knowing your area of interest well ).
From what I've gathered purely by going by the headstamp information, I came to the following conjectural timelines for the usage of 47x131R ammo:
- Pre 1898: unknown if the Japanese used the 47x131R calibre. I do however have pictures of a Japanese used EOC manufactured 3Pr (47x376R) case that dates back to 1894.
- 1898 (May) - 1901 (August): EOC manufacture for Japan. The exact interval may be longer, but this is what I have observed by headstamp dates.
- +/- 1901+ (September): First dated domestic Japanese manufacture by the Kure arsenal on a 57x306R 6Pr case. Domestic manufacture of 47x131R cases also started around that time, it seems.
- +/- 1915 (highly conjectural!): Apparently around that year the Japanese fulfilled contracts for Europeans (Russia, UK, ...). Seemingly the Japanese exported large quantities of 47x131R ammo to the UK too somewhere around that time. These would be the 47x131R cases that have Japanese arsenal markings AND the British 'Cf' markings on them. I also suspect that this is the era during which the anchor stamped APHE projectiles with wide corrugated driving bands that are seen so often in the UK were exported from Japan to the UK.
- WW2 era: I have one specimen that was manufactured by the Kure arsenal in 1942. It has a typical Showa era style headstamp, which is quite different from that that is seen on the earlier mentioned specimens.
- Unknown era: many Japanese cases do carry arsenal anchors (or 'simple anchors') but have no date information whatsoever. These may be pre-1898, but there is no telling for sure. They could also have been made in any (or all) of the other eras.

It is very difficult to be sure of any of the above information as I lack the documentary evidence to back it up. These are merely the preliminary findings of my own research.

To return to this case: the 47x131R calibre is pretty much the only calibre that I more or less collect by headstamp. That doesn't mean that I want a specimen with each minutely different headstamp, as that would amount to an excessive number. I do, however, like to have at least one of each "logical variant" and sometimes more than one. The key with this case is finding out if the Japanese used such composite cases or not. For that, I will turn to a new Japanese acquaintance who is a researcher over there. Perhaps he knows, but communication with him goes at a painfully slow rate (with weeks between emails) and has to take place using translation software. I will definitely let you know first if it turns out to not have been Japanese used and if it can leave the collection. For now I'll keep it with the collection until I can be sure either way round.

Two final things of interest to add regarding this particular case:
1) The drawing you added is dead on. As for the 'riveting': this too can clearly be seen on the inside: there are four squarish slots (at the positions where you see the brass 'pins' on the head) and it looks like the base has been 'push clamped' onto those slots with two 'wedges' per slot. It doesn't look like the kind of rivets that are seen on a ship, but possibly this way of connecting the base to the head is called 'riveting' nonetheless...
2) Chances are that the headstamp marking(s) really is limited to a single circle with a character in it. Such markings are commonly seen on Japanese used EOC manufactured cases. Further research will have to establish the likelihood of it having been Japanese used or not...

Thanks again, and as always, further information and/or pictures are always welcome!
Olafo

 

[HAZORD]

Gordon,

In the diagram of shell cases that you posted, what are the two rounds on the far right? The one next to last looks like 3 inch, or what turned into the 3 inch U.S. antiaircraft gun. But I can't recognize the one on the far right, and I can't read the notes under each round.