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Raid on "Collectors" in Belgium

Weasel

Weasel

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/regio/westvlaanderen/140223_Westhoek_obussen

Today, the police raided by collectors in Langemark-Poelkapelle, Zonnebeke and Staden. They were joined by soldiers from DOVO, the bomb squad of the army.

In Poelcapelle more than 4,000 shells and supplies bullets and mortar shells were taken. Zonnebeke an owner refused them access to its repository which is then sealed.

The explosive devices will now be destroyed. The owners risk persecution. Virtually all that is above ordnance removed during plowing fields in Flanders. Most explosive devices are harmless, but still remains in many cases, a risk.

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/article/detail.aspx?articleid=dmf20140222_00993248&saved=1#reageer
 
Belgian law say : "any ammunition for military exclusive use is prohibited." (Law 2006 of weapons & ammunition).

They never spoke over an era of use. Only people with a certificate "museum" may hold military munitions, empty and completely inert of course !



Yoda
 
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In Belgium, the law on firearms and ammunition is clear: the ammunition with exclusive military use are prohibited (law of 2006 weapons and ammunitions).

Only people with a certificate museum may hold military munitions, empty and completely inert of course !




Yoda
 
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Yoda,
isn't it the law in Belgium that any remains from both wars is the property of the Belgian state anyway?


Tony
 
Never could read it in law !
Lawyers believe only what's written somewhere, Tony !


Yoda
 
imaokie2000 said:
Are they not allowed to own them even if they are inert??????
Click to expand...

For much of it you have to understand the scope of the problem. Recovery of these types of rounds has continued in parts of Belgium and France for the past 90 years. In some areas the EOD teams average nearly a ton a day, over 350 tons a year, with around 5% of it chemical.
While there are some good, bona-fide collectors, many are simply scavengers doing it for profit, and they do not let live rounds slow them down. Accidents with the recovered ordnance are common, killing scavengers, farmers and EOD techs as well. Further, the scavengers sell much of this at outlandish prices to tourists, who have no idea what they are buying. Very quickly the decent collector is drowned out by these people and the problems that result.
 
hicky1300 said:
Interesting
So how do all the militaria dealers/traders in Belgium manage to bypass the law???
Click to expand...
Beer drinking with politicals to change the laws !!!! Soon election day here !!!
You can do whatever you want unless you get caught !
Control of all collectors is very, very, very difficult. Some of them are good and correct collectors, some are "super EOD technicians" who are searching ammunitions on the battlefields for collect and make a big imago of us on internet on bad collectors forums or to make easy money from unaware people "...but evidently that it is empty, look !", main charge is not in munition, but booster is always on the fuze !!!



Yoda
 
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Yodamaster said:
In Belgium, the law on firearms and ammunition is clear: the ammunition with exclusive military use are prohibited (law of 2006 weapons and ammunitions).

Only people with a certificate museum may hold military munitions, empty and completely inert of course !

Yoda
Click to expand...


Yoda, the 2006 law has already changed multiple times.... When I renewed some of my permits in 2011, i did ask a similar question to F. Ide, the man responsible for "writing" the Belgian laws on firearms.

His answer was clear:

Er bestaat in ons land inderdaad geen aparte regeling voor onbruikbaar gemaakte munitie, laat staan voor die van groot kaliber.
We moeten dus teruggrijpen naar de algemene regels van art. 22 WW. Daar staat dat de vergunningsplicht van toepassing is op munitie, behalve op patroonhulzen en projectielen die onbruikbaar gemaakt zijn. Voor munitie bestaat dit uit het feit van afgevuurd te zijn of uiteengenomen te zijn zodat het afvuren niet meer mogelijk is.
In tegenstelling tot wat met vuurwapens het geval is, bestaat er geen neutralisatieprocedure en dus evenmin een wettelijk voorgeschreven bewijs daarvan. Het is dus een feitenkwestie.
Wie kan aantonen dat de patronen niet meer bruikbaar zijn, heeft dus geen vergunning nodig.
Click to expand...

His conclusion in the last line translates as: Who can prove that the rounds are not usable anymore (that he describes above as fired, emptied or disassembled in such a way that firing them is impossible) , does not need a permit !

Guess even the makers of the law don't know it anymore....
 
orpheus72 said:
Yoda, the 2006 law has already changed multiple times.... When I renewed some of my permits in 2011, i did ask a similar question to F. Ide, the man responsible for "writing" the Belgian laws on firearms.
Click to expand...

Effectively, the law of 2006 is multiple times changed or modified with addendums and/or erratas ! But, it's the same thing that with the Napoleon code !!!
Never abroged and replaced ! The same article of law is always usefull. The situation is different if you are a sportshooter or hunter than if you are a collector of "live"ammunition. It's really bad for some collectors who have a wonderful collection of empty shells, grenades,rockets,... bought on controlled militaria and that for a reason or another, we must seized our collection. That's always following the ideas of the judge ! If he is shooter or hunter, he shall understand the situation and find the sentence in the law which autorize the detaining of the munitions. If he has see in the past a collector who's badly death with the explosion of an "empty" fuze, he'll decide do seize all and let destroy it.
That's the problem with a law and multiple modifications !


Yoda
 
The main reason these collectors were caught was that they were being snitched on by another collector. (Because those two collectors in past times made him out to be a thief...)

About the farmer, his "collection" probably got somewhat out of hand. And there were probably about 5-8 live projectiles in his heap of hundreds of empty shells.
 
As I understood, european weapon laws are being made... I forsee a dark future for all collectors in europe. For the politicians in Brussel forbidding everything is always the easy way out, making a good legistation -protecting bonafide collectors- seems to be too much to ask.

Regards, DJH
 
I believe that much like in the NL, the initiative has to be with the collectors. If they do not take lead and both join ranks and police their own ranks, there is no advantage to the Govt to allow anything. Without an organized group all that is visible is the problems that the ordnance collecting creates.
 
A lot of the collectors here in my region (West-Flanders) are more of the anonimous types... Their collections are theirs, and
most of the time will not share it with the outside world (sometimes not even with their families) . So to get them to unite will
be quite impossible...

They and in fact I as wel (at least a bit) are afraid from the outside world in terms of jealousy from other collectors
but mostly from the main mass of people for whom a piece of ammunition, (even empty 9mm casing) is the
most life-threathing thing in the whole world... They see us a crazy people endangering the neigberhood.

And like said before, the law is a giant grey-zone in which we all drown in terms of may or may not and so on.
 
I understand completely. When I moved to the NL I was more than a little concerned by the restrictions placed on collectors. The system works however, and I held a collector's "license" for over 12 years. I also had the benefit of being able to speak to more than one of the founders of the Dutch collecting group, and learn how they were able to overcome problems similar to those you are describing. No system is perfect, but over the years I have found that transparency and openness have served me much better than anything else. Good luck.
 
People often think about what happens when the government does not trust the people.
What happens when the government no longer trusts people who try to preserve history?
 
...also what happens when a government changes the law?.....the 'transparent' collectors are the first to get their doors kicked in?

Tony
 
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