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Shipping Inert Ordnance from France

Correus

Active Member
Hello everyone -

Not sure if this is the right place to post this or not....

Does anyone know if it is illegal for inert ordnance to be shipped into or out of France?

I have had someone tell me that in France and the Netherlands it's strictly forbidden to do this. But in the same message they said the French seller must also have a license for this and must notify customs.

I haven't found anything online where this is discussed.

Thanks!
 
ive had quite a few grenades come from france with no problems.

Have any of them been recently?

I ask because when I started doing more research into what was told to me and finally found some information. What I read said that French Customs is cracking down, have been for a couple years I guess, on anything that had at one time been an explosive of some sort as well as items like bayonets. There has been a lot of discussion on some militaria forums where members have been telling what has happened to them. From what they are saying it isn't illegal to own such items in France, and they are for sale just about anywhere, it becomes illegal when you try to take it out of the country.

Collectors have been having bayonets and other edged weapons, firearm parts, empty cartridges, inert ordnance of all types (grenades, artillery shells, mortar rounds, etc.) as well as fragments of ordnance confiscated. I kid you not about this...just goggle something along the lines of "French Customs inert ordnance" type topics. Most of the complaining comes from Brits returning home from holiday but expands.

There were a couple inert items I wanted to purchase from dealers in France but they said they would not ship to the USA. When I asked why they said they didn't like dealing with the US customs and one said they didn't ship out of France because it wasn't worth the hassle. I have a friend in Germany I can have such items to, as well as one in Britain, and they will send it on to me. I've done this a few times with no problem In fact, I just received a Wurfgranate 14 in the mail today from a dealer in Germany. However, these dealers said they wouldn't ship outside of France.

The other day I made arrangements with a couple I know in France to have the two items sent to them. I told them what was going on and even suggested they open the boxes when they got them so they could see nothing illegal was in them. Today I got an e-mail with the information I posted earlier. They also told me that if they were caught shipping them they would be subject to fines as well. So they told me they were not willing to do this for me now.

The more digging I did the more I found out based on what others mentioned as well as a few references to French customs laws - but I'm not finding the laws. All of these people are saying the same thing - it is illegal for the items to be taken out of the country, the items are to be confiscated and destroyed. The person trying to take/send them out of the country are subject to a fine based on the item and the method used to do it (not sure what as meant by that). The person who sold the item is not required to tell the buyer this information. There are some instances where the empty brass cartridge is allowed to be shipped if it has had a hole drilled in the side. Having a hole drilled in the side of a shell or grenade is no longer good enough, evidently other methods need to be taken as well. A license (the French equivalent of the USA's FFE license) is now required for ANYONE selling items like these for export and they are to be shipped in specific ways. A separate license, like the other one, is also required if a person is importing such items. The French customs people do acknowledge that not every package is inspected but those that are found are to be confiscated and destroyed. There is no compensation for the item confiscated either.

I'm still trying to find the actual French customs laws that spell this out but haven't found them. I do find most of this credible though because everyone talking about it is saying the same thing.

What are your thoughts?

When You have purchased items you haven't had anyone mention this to you?
 
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2-3 years ago had 2 shipments from France "disappear" with no news. Also one from England. I have since been very cautious about buying over seas. Which is a great pain in the hind quarters as there is where the good stuff is.
 
I've lost one shipment from France.
You might want to check US laws as I believe its illegal to ship ordnance through the mail.
 
I've lost one shipment from France.
You might want to check US laws as I believe its illegal to ship ordnance through the mail.

I spoke to our local post mistress who retired last year about this. She said this was a "grey zone". Technically it's illegal to ship "ordnance" through the mail but that law was created back when people had no problem finding grenades, shells, etc. that were still live, or parts that were still dangerous, and didn't give a second thought to mailing such items. She said the unspoken rule most customs workers and postal workers followed that she knew was to let them go on through unless they looked live or suspicious. I asked her what she meant by that and she said it was hard to describe but you just knew it when you saw it. She said it does help if the item can be broken down into separate pieces and could be seen to have nothing in them. So I told here it was along the lines of "don't ask don't tell" and she said that was correct in a way. She did point out that since 9/11 customs officials and anyone else that works in shipping and receiving packages (USPS, DHL, UPS, FedX, etc) are a bit more antsy and keep a sharper eye out for items such as this.

I have had half of my grenades come from the UK and the other half from here in the USA and Germany. I've yet to loose one (knock on wood) but really thought I had with the W.Gr. 14 that was being shipped to me - but arrived today. The W.Gr.14 was broken down into the grenade head, the tube, and the detonator. Each piece was in it's own little package within the box. The customs paperwork had been looked at but the package had not been opened and gone through from what I can tell. I will have to do a double check what the dealer wrote on the customs form as to what it was since my German isn't the best, but I didn't recognize it as one of the German grenade terms I'm use to - but that doesn't mean much since I'm just starting to learn the German terminology. I'l post pics as soon as I can though. :bigsmile:
 
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2-3 years ago had 2 shipments from France "disappear" with no news. Also one from England. I have since been very cautious about buying over seas. Which is a great pain in the hind quarters as there is where the good stuff is.

Not to mention the price even with the S&H added in to it. The grenade I got in the mail today from Germany cost me about 1/5 what it would have cost here in the US for one in so-so shape without the fuse.
 
We have done threads on both of these subjects (France and US) in the past. I won't drag it all out, but to summarize -
I did tour of several installation in France about 4-5 years ago, during this we saw numerous items for sale at gas stations and such. I was told by Govt officials that this was strictly illegal, but that local officials generally overlooked it when selling to tourists. At the border there were always stories of folks that lost their purchases on the way home.

In the US it is legal to mail inert ordnance. It must be correctly marked. The thread is here somewhere. I tracked it down through the USPS website to a final discussion with a Postal Inspector who gave me the reference.
 
A couple of people mentioned that the local authorities looked the other way - since it legal to own - they just don't bother to tell you about taking it out. One gent said that not every agent feels the same and will items pass and that that not all are confiscated since not all packages are inspected (time and people issues) unless it raises a red flag.

What really gets me is why would they confiscate fragments? At first I didn't believe it but more than 3 people said the same thing. The other thing I couldn't find any additional info on was the part about a single hole drilled in a grenade is no longer good enough - what else are they wanting done with it?

BTW - what the dealer wrote on the customs form as to the description of the item was "Stahlgugehuse" - Cast iron housing.

So how you guys getting your items here? Just luck and someone you know willing to ship anyway? My person has backed.... :-(
 
i got a mills from france about 2 months ago. i asked the dealer to strip it down in case it was opened but he didnt bother, it still arrived safely though.
 
I think the couple I know over there might be a bit paranoid but there might be something to it. A dealer in Germany I have bought from in the past just sent me a link to the Union Franaise des amateurs d’Armes (http://www.armes-ufa.com/) and it goes into significant detail. However - my French is not all that good so I'm having a hard time finding the part that deals with inert ordnance. I need to ask the guy to send me the part that deals with them specifically I guess.
 
My French sucks as well.............however, most web browsers provide a page translation function and could easily translate it into English.

Beware of course that performing a site search requires French not English, so "Inert Ordnance" is "Munitions inertes" (use babylon translator or similar)

Found this:

http://www.armes-ufa.com/spip.php?article602

Proposals collectors Ammunition


Wednesday, March 3, 2010 by
UFA

Currently collectors ammunition does not legally exist. Are classified as "collection" the ammunition for weapons of 8th grade, ["provided they do not contain any explosive substance other than black powder." [ 1 ] This leaves room for nothing else.

puce-cebf5.gif
To define the notion of ammunition "neutralized" .
They would then objects inert not governed by the regulations of weapons. There existed a draft order drawn up with other texts related to the 1995 decree. He must coexist with the decree of 7 September 1995 [ 2 ] on weapons collection. He stated that of small arms ammunition was in 8th grade, provided that:

  • a 3 mm hole was drilled in order to empty the powder,
  • primer was offset by a drop of motor oil. This order was forgotten and collectors ammunition require it to be taken.
puce-cebf5.gif
The same for shell casings, shells defused grenade body etc ... they want that arrangements are made ​​for the historical controls can be legally kept, civil security is respected



Cheers
Drew
 
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My French sucks as well.............however, most web browsers provide a page translation function and could easily translate it into English.

Beware of course that performing a site search requires French not English, so "Inert Ordnance" is "Munitions inertes" (use babylon translator or similar)

Found this:

http://www.armes-ufa.com/spip.php?article602

Proposals collectors Ammunition


Wednesday, March 3, 2010 by
UFA

Currently collectors ammunition does not legally exist. Are classified as "collection" the ammunition for weapons of 8th grade, ["provided they do not contain any explosive substance other than black powder." [ 1 ] This leaves room for nothing else.

puce-cebf5.gif
To define the notion of ammunition "neutralized" .
They would then objects inert not governed by the regulations of weapons. There existed a draft order drawn up with other texts related to the 1995 decree. He must coexist with the decree of 7 September 1995 [ 2 ] on weapons collection. He stated that of small arms ammunition was in 8th grade, provided that:

  • a 3 mm hole was drilled in order to empty the powder,
  • primer was offset by a drop of motor oil. This order was forgotten and collectors ammunition require it to be taken.
puce-cebf5.gif
The same for shell casings, shells defused grenade body etc ... they want that arrangements are made ​​for the historical controls can be legally kept, civil security is respected



Cheers
Drew

Heya Drew - I've been doing the same - running it through a couple different translation programs as well "Munitions Inertes" and keep coming up with the same thing - it's okay to ship. A dealer in Germany who deals with French collectors and dealers a lot has said the same thing. He did say that if an item looks "iffy" they will usually take it. However, for some reason I still can't get someone to help me - they all sty it's illegal and the could get fined or even go to jail!!! So don't really know what to do - you can't force someone to sell to you and if the French government have people that scared there isn't much you can do to change their minds.

I'm still finding instances where people are having their items confiscated at the border though so I don't know what's going on over there. Any thoughts on finding someine willing to help and be a go-between?
 
Hi Correus

I come back on the forum, just to help you and to bring some informations as you asked on my message box.

Be very careful, because what was possible 15 years ago is finished today since the Twin Towers Collapse.

Very often , problems happens , as bad for the seller as heavy for the buyer,
because many packets are controled when they are shipped (with plane).

They search weapons, ammo, drug, chinese copies, food , money ... everything ....

I have heard , very often , that problems with ammo happened.
Some friends in Germany and Belgium and Italy say the same in theirown countries

The ammos are immediatly destroyed by the EOD


=== for example === (traduction with REVERSO)

=== 1


Un obus dans un colis : la Poste principale vacue
Publi le 28/04/2011 12H35


Le bureau de poste de la rue Jeanne -d-Arc Rouen a t totalement vacue ce jeudi vers 12 heures,
aprs la dcouverte d'un obus dans un colis.
Le receveur a immdiatement alert les services de police qui, eux-mmes, ont demand l'intervention
du service de dminage de Rouen.
En fait, aprs inspection de l'engin d'origine allemande, il s'agissait d'un obus en acier de 77 mm vide de tout explosif.
Une obus comme il y en avait beaucoup qui, autrefois, trnaient sur les chemines dans les campagnes.
Ce vestige de guerre a t rcupr par la police, en attendant d'identifier son destinataire.
Aprs une vacuation, tout est rentr dans l’ordre.
La police rappelle que l’obus constitue une arme de 1re catgorie
et que son envoi est donc formellement interdit.
Le bureau de poste a pu rouvrir peu avant 12 h 30.


A shell in a parcel: Main Post office evacuated
Published on 28/04/2011 at 12:35 am


The post office of the street Jeanne-d-Arc in Rouen was totally evacuated on Thursday at about 12 am,
after the discovery of a shell in a parcel.
The post employee immediately alerted the police services which, themselves,
asked for the intervention of the service(department) of mine clearance of Rouen.
In fact, after inspection of the object of German origin, it was a steel shell of 77 mm empty of any explosive.
One shell as there was a lot which, formerly, throned on fireplaces in campaigns(countrysides).

This war vestige was got back by the police, while waiting for to identify his(her) addressee.
After an evacuation, everything is back to normal again(sorted out).
The police calls back(reminds) that the shell is a weapon of 1st category (forbidden))


=== 2


le 24/01/2013 - Argenteuil (prs de Paris)
Un obus a t retrouv dans un colis endommag au centre de tri de la Poste Argenteuil.
Aprs intervention d'une quipe de dminage, l'engin s'est rvl inoffensif.

Panique la Poste hier Argenteuil.
Une munition de 90 mm de la Premire Guerre mondiale a t retrouve dans un colis endommag au centre de tri.
Le paquet provenait de Plaisir (Yvelines) et tait destin un homme de Colombes (Hauts-de-Seine).
Une quipe de dminage a t appele intervenir.
Le btiment a t vacu pendant une heure.
Plus de peur que de mal : l'obus tait dsarm.


On 24/01/2013 - Argenteuil (near Paris)
A shell was found in a parcel damaged in the Post office ( Argenteuil ).
After intervention of a bomb disposal unit, the engine showed itself harmless.


Panic in the Post office yesterday to Argenteuil.
An ammunition of 90 mm of the World War I was found in a parcel damaged in the center of sorting.
The package resulted from the town Pleasure (Yvelines) and was intended for a man of Doves (Hauts-de-Seine).
A bomb disposal unit was called to vontrol .
The building was evacuated during one hour.
the shell was empty .


=== 3


Publi le 16/02/2011
Obus tomb du colis : le centre de tri de Sarrebourg vacu


Quatre-vingts agents du centre de tri postal de Sarrebourg ont t vacus, hier,
aprs la dcouverte d’un obus datant de 1917. Le temps d’carter les risques d’explosion.


Les agents du centre de tri postal de Sarrebourg, prsents lors de la dcouverte d’un obus datant
de la Premire Guerre mondiale parmi les colis charris dans leurs locaux, ont su garder leur calme.
Tous ont scrupuleusement suivi les consignes d’vacuation applicables en cas d’urgence sans cder la panique,
sachant pourtant bien qu’il ne s’agissait cette fois pas d’un exercice.


Vers 7 h 30 hier, lors du triage des lettres et paquets, un carton a cd sous le poids de son contenant.
Lorsque les facteurs ont vu la munition vieille de prs d’un sicle s’chapper de son emballage, la surprise a t de taille.
L’agent a aussitt alert son cadre suprieur.
Ce dernier a alert la police de Sarrebourg et donn l’ordre ses employs de s’carter du danger.


Poursuites judiciaires


Les deux officiers dpchs sur place ont laiss les quatre-vingts agents en service aller prendre un caf aux frais de la direction,
le temps pour eux d’effectuer les premires constatations.


Mesure de prcaution prise, comme l’explique le capitaine Godart, du commissariat de Sarrebourg,
parce que le bouchon dclencheur d’une ogive rouille, vide de sa poudre et de sa charge explosive,
reste actif et oblige classer l’obus dans la catgorie des munitions de premire catgorie .
Aprs s’tre assurs de l’absence de risque d’explosion, les officiers se sont saisis de la bombe pour la confier aux dmineurs.
Charge eux de la neutraliser.


Les postiers se sont efforcs de rattraper le retard pris dans la distribution du courrier, les policiers
de Sarrebourg d’entendre le destinataire du colis et leurs homologues du Pas-de-Calais de convoquer l’envoyeur.


La dtention de ce type de munitions tant interdite par la loi, ces derniers s’exposent des poursuites judiciaires.


Published on 16/02/2011
Shell(Shells) fallen from the parcel: the sorting office of evacuated Sarrebourg


Eighty agents of the sorting office of Sarrebourg were evacuated, yesterday,
After the discovery of a shell dating 1917. The time(weather) to spread(to push aside) the risks of explosion.


The agents of the sorting office of Sarrebourg, present during the discovery of a dating shell
Of the World War I among parcel transported in their premises(places), knew how to keep calm.
All scrupulously followed the applicable instructions of evacuation in case of emergency without giving in to the panic,
Nevertheless knowing well that it was this time not about an exercise.


At about 7:30 am yesterday, during the sorting of letters and packages, a cardboard(box) gave way under the weight of its packaging.
When factors(mailmen) saw the old ammunition of about century escaping from its packaging, the surprise was considerable.
The agent immediately alerted(notified) his senior executive.
The latter alerted(notified) the police of Sarrebourg and gave the order to his(her) employees to move away from the danger.


Legal proceedings


Both officers sent on the spot let eighty agents in service(department) go to have a coffee at the expense of the direction(management),
the time(weather) for them to make the first observations.


Taken precautionary measure, as explains it captain Godart, of the commissionership of Sarrebourg,
because " the cork trigger of a rusty diagonal rib(nose cone), emptied of its powder and its explosive charge, a
ctive rest and obliges to classify the shell in the category of the ammunitions of first category ".
Having made sure of the absence of risk of explosion, the officers seized the bomb(spray) to confide(entrust) her(it) to the mine clearance experts.
Load(Responsibility) to them to neutralize her(it).


The post-office employees tried hard to catch up the delay taken in the postal delivery, the policemen of Sarrebourg to hear(understand)
the addressee of the parcel and their counterparts of Pas-de-Calais to summon(convene) the sender.



The detention of this type(chap) of ammunitions being forbidden by the law, the latter expose(explain) themselves to legal proceedings.


=== 4 an other one

http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/moselle-un-arsenal-guerre-saisi-chez-deux-particuliers-474744.html


=== ... etc ....

Best regards
 
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The laws in France have been touched on in various threads before. Basically laws in France regarding this type of subject relate to "war materiel" of which most are illegal to own in France. There is also a potential heritage law implication - depending on how and where the items may have come from (i.e dug-up). I'm not sure on what the implications in relation to an overseas purchaser in relation to a posted item are. I would assume the seller is the only culpable person within France. The application of French law does seem to be not rigorously applied, dependant on who you are. In a nutshell I would believe shipping any item deemed to be within the categories of "War Materiel" certainly illegal within France. I did actually post a thread in relation to this a while ago asking any of our French colleagues to clarify - unfortunately there was no further information forthcoming via any replies. Information Links below:http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/news/newsflash/1406-militaria-collectors-alert-new-french-customs-rules.html

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp?id=583

http://archives.sipri.org/contents/expcon/fra_dec95_589.html#anchor1541020
 
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