Shipping Inert Ordnance to Canada.

[ammocat]

Currently there are some World War 1 era German grenades for auction on Gunbroker. The seller is located in Nebraska. I would be interested in bidding on one of them, but I have never purchased anything from the U.S. before. I know inert ordnance cannot be mailed through Canada Post. I am not totally clear on the rules regarding the import of inert items.

Does anyone have any experience having items shipped from the U.S. to Canada and can anyone provide me with any advice on the subject.

Cheers,

 

[raymeketa]

ammocat

Good luck with getting an answer. This has been a concern ever since Canada Post changed their rules regarding Inert Munitions a few years ago. As a cartridge collector, I no longer receive or send inert ammunition from or to Canada. Most collectors I know have taken the same position. We simply find other ways to get the item across the line and then do a face-to face or drop ship via UPS or some other common carrier.

I do know some collectors who take the position that Inert means Inert and they simply do business as usual. Whether they are breaking the laws or not is something that is hard to say because Canada Post regulations do not define "Inert Munitions". Inquiries to them go largely unanswered and the unofficial response is that the definition was purposely left out of the regulations to prevent someone from finding a loophole and skirting the intent.

I think I would ask the seller if he will ship via US Mail and see what he says. There is always UPS or FedEx although the cost for an International shipment may be prohibitive. And, there are US State Department regulations on this side of the border that have to be dealt with, but I have yet to hear of anyone getting into trouble over a collectable item or two.

Of course, nothing I would recommend should be taken as official and you two would be strictly on your own.

Ray

 

[ammocat]

Thanks for the reply. I found this on the Canada Post website, and unfortunately I have had to deal with items found in the postal system, so I know I can't ship through Canada Post.

"Replica or inert munitions are non-mailable, as well as other devices that simulate explosive devices or munitions, including replica or inert grenades or other simulated military munitions, whether or not such items are for display purposes. These products are not permitted in the mail under any circumstances."

From CBSA Memorandum D19-10-2 - 5.(1) the Governor in Council may establish a list of goods, to be called an Import Control List, including therein any article the import of which the Governor in Council deems it necessary to control for any of the following purposes:

(c.1) to restrict the importation of arms, ammunition, implements or munitions of war, army, naval, or air stores, or any articles capable of being converted thereinto or made useful in the production thereof:

The Import Control lists
73. Bombs, torpedos, rockets, and guided or unguided missiles and all components and parts specifically designed therefor, and any other ammunition for the goods set out in items 70 to 72.

70 (1) Small arms that are rifles, carbines, revolvers, pistols, machine pistols, or machine guns.
(2) All components and parts specifically designed for the goods set out in subsection (1).
71 (1) Large calibre armaments or weapons and projectors that are guns, howitzers, cannons, mortars, tank destroyers, rocket or missile launchers, military flame throwers, recoilless rifles, or military smoke, gas and pyrotechnic projectors.
(2) All components and parts specifically designed for the goods set out in subsection (1)
72. Tanks and self propelled guns and all components and parts specifically designed therefor.

So obviously there are restrictions on the importation of military ammunition, explosives, etc, but it is not prohibited. I cannot find any reference to inert munitions for display or collection in any of the CBSA documents. I went to the local CBSA office and they could not provide me with any answers and recommended I contact other government agencies. Unfortunately, the item I am interested in is only up for another 2 days, so I doubt I will get any firm answers in time.

 

[raymeketa]

You might make a quick inquiry on the Grenade forum. Also, Forum member "Slick" deals with munitions of this type and maybe he's had experience with shipping to Canada. You might contact him.

Good Luck

Ray

 

[EODGUY]

I have not researched this in depth, but I have been told by several people that sending any live or inert ammunition (small arms and up) or live or inert ammunition components through the US mail is prohibited. As stated above UPS and FEDEX are the available options. Do people still send inert items through the mail...yes, but is it legal...apparently not. I have stopped doing any sending of things outside of the US so I am not up on customs and import/export laws on ordnance items, but in today's day in age I would imagine that those laws are not colelctor friendly either. Bob

 

[raymeketa]

Bob

Collectors routinely send inert cartridges, empty cases, and bullets through USPS. As far as I know, no one has been arrested or told by USPS that it should not be done. The US State Department regulations are another thing altogether and it may be that they could use their authority to stop such things although I doubt if they would.

Mailing inert items outside the US gets more complicated. Up until a year ago I mailed to collectors all over the world and declared the contents on the customs form. I also received packages from outside the US. But, I haven't done that lately. Only because everyone is so vague about what is legal and what isn't. Canada has been a no-no for several years because of what we discussed above.

Live ammunition or primed cases can go UPS or FedEx Ground only and there has never been a problem there.

I can imagine that things will get worse before they get better. Many UPS and FedEx hubs will refuse shipments of ammo, components, and rifles/shotguns even though their regulations clearly state that it is legal. But, they are private businesses and can do whatever they want and I can see the day coming when sending live ammunition by any method will be prohibited. It's only a matter of time until inert ammunition and/or components will be banned also.

Ray

 

[EODGUY]

Ray,

I agree with everything you say about collectors shipping inert ammo with the US Postal Service. The people that told me wetre both postal employees and non-postal employees that you can't mail inert items through the mail. Doesn't mean people do not do it all the time, but doing it deosn't make it legal either. If it isn't legal as they say and you do it then you risk the visit by some law enforcement agency who might well go off the deep end if they view a collection of ordnance and "explosive devices" in the home. Like an ATF explosives agent told me once, they don't look for reasons to hassle the good guys, but if you are a hand loader they could find enough material in your home and garage to arrest you for possession of the material necessary to make an explosive device. All it takes is for some agent with a bad day to make everyone's day bad. Chances are it would never happen, but just because people mail things doesn't make it right or better their chances of not having a problem.

Bob

Bob

 

[raymeketa]

Bob

I agree 100%. That's exactly what makes regulations such as Canada Post so dangerous. They say they left the wording vague in order to catch the bad guys, but there is nothing to say that they can't be used against the good guys too.

Ray

 

[Gspragge]

This is what I do. I apply for and get an import permit. This does not allow mailing items in. It might allow UPS or similar service, but you would have to include copies of this and that might work. What I do is have a friend in the U.S. hold everything and twice a year we visit a friend in upper NY and I have everything ups'd up to a pick up point near by. I unpack it, repack it empty casings on top etc and in a smaller box. Then I drive it across, they ask how much I have spent like any time you visit the U.S. I say what ever value I have spent (these are antique or collectable brass items items if asked, never say ammunition or related description or they might flip out at the first inspection, they don't seem to care at all once they see the permit) ( includes bill of sale for the whole pile and any other purchases) If I have to pay duty I have the receipts and most importantly the import permit. I never have any trouble. This is for empty inert items. When I apply I have to supply a list of what size cases how many number of projectiles and bits. Not details of each but a quantity of each size. It cost $15 per permit and is cheap insurance. There is a form you fill out and submit with a cover letter describing things along with the bill of sale for all of. Even a piece of trench art or a casing made into a clock is considered a munition item. I will scan a copy of the form and an old permit - good for 60 days though I always specify when and where I am crossing.

 

[Gspragge]

This is what is involved. I fax these to them with a friendly cover letter giving my time of travel and So on.
Your contact is ; Jana-M Loveridge Whom you should call first time at 613-996-4749, She is very nice and helpful. You will have to set up an account with them (for billing) etc.
I fax up the documents (613-999-3205) If you send then enough information you shouldn't have to talk to them about things, but you might, in which case you might speak to the actual person who issues the permit. Be concise and accurate. They need signatures on things which is why they are faxed, but correspondence back and forth will be with email and the permit will come that way also.
I show a filled out permit App. ( I hope yours is neater than mine) Information breakdown (more detailed than receipt) , sales receipt and permit.
When I cross the border I don't volunteer that I have this at the booth I only produce it if I am sent over to pay duty etc. It is part of my sales receipt pile. Most of the time we get a few questions and if the value of purchases is low enough it's have a nice day ~

 

[ammocat]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses and thanks to Gspragge for posting the documents and contact information. I doubt I will be able to put this all in place for the current auction, but at least I can work towards getting this all organized for the future.

 

[Gspragge]

It can be put in place, if you have a couple of weeks and can get it to a friend in the U.S. to hold it for you. Or if the auction place will hold it for a week or two for you. This is not a long process they are quite quick actually, the only delays are the going back and forth if there are mistakes in filing out the form or you don't supply enough information. Naturally the values you use if from a private person are more imagined than real "nudge nudge wink wink"

 

[grog18b]

I had several replica inert 40mm items destroyed by Canadian customs. Don't expect anything shipped from the US to Canada to arrive. I no longer offer sales to Canada because of this. GROG

 

[Gspragge]

You can sell to us if the buyer has a US mail address. There are places near borders that offer this service so that we can cross and pick things up personally. The problem is Canada Post they are ***odies friend and rip us off.