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Unknown 4 inch Mk 16 / Mk 21 Projectile
- Thread starter Andy Naude
- Start date
Andy Naude
Well-Known Member
This item really looked original.
I thought it may be Reduced Explosive Practice.
I thought it may be Reduced Explosive Practice.
I thought Radar Echo payloads were strips of 'window' or aluminium discs in a base ejection shell hence the symbol and I am fairly sure that I have seen RE Proof which may account for the RE/P. Happy to be corrected on both.
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1 What markings are on the base of the case and on the fuze
2 Can you see any manufacture markings on the shell
3 The shell looks like it has been repainted at another depot as Glascoed does not use stencil for marking .They use a rolling pad or stamp
Hope this info helps
Steve Ex RNAD Trecwn
2 Can you see any manufacture markings on the shell
3 The shell looks like it has been repainted at another depot as Glascoed does not use stencil for marking .They use a rolling pad or stamp
Hope this info helps
Steve Ex RNAD Trecwn
Andy Naude
Well-Known Member
Yes the round is QF Fixed. These were commonly used in South Africa. It is however not a ballistic Cap shot. Is you can enlarge the third photo you will see some of the markings better.
It is a plug. "Plug Firing R2 M .... REP".
So I believe it would have been fired with the attached plug, or the plug was replaced with a fuze before firing.
There is also the Zig-Zag pattern in the back ground of the R.E / P.
It is a plug. "Plug Firing R2 M .... REP".
So I believe it would have been fired with the attached plug, or the plug was replaced with a fuze before firing.
There is also the Zig-Zag pattern in the back ground of the R.E / P.
Andy Naude
Well-Known Member
I should have taken more notes, but the photos are now my only source.
Sorry
Sorry
Andy Naude
Well-Known Member
Looks like it was converted
Well done to AE501 on pointing out the differences.
I went and had another look at the projectile. On a closer look I saw that the projectile HAD been repainted. One can see the HE SUB / Practice Blue paint with some markings where the black paint started chipping off.
The projectile is dated 1946 but the case is dated 1953.
The "fuze plug" is stamped REP. Unlike the practice nose plug, which I have seen, which is made of aluminium.
In a recent post on the 4.5 inch I noticed that the projectile was painted "REPTD NZL" or to that effect.
My question now is: Is it possible that this HE SUB was converted to Radio Echo Projectile in Simons Town at a much later date using older rounds?
Well done to AE501 on pointing out the differences.
I went and had another look at the projectile. On a closer look I saw that the projectile HAD been repainted. One can see the HE SUB / Practice Blue paint with some markings where the black paint started chipping off.
The projectile is dated 1946 but the case is dated 1953.
The "fuze plug" is stamped REP. Unlike the practice nose plug, which I have seen, which is made of aluminium.
In a recent post on the 4.5 inch I noticed that the projectile was painted "REPTD NZL" or to that effect.
My question now is: Is it possible that this HE SUB was converted to Radio Echo Projectile in Simons Town at a much later date using older rounds?
When you say the shell is dated 1946, is that from a stamped or painted date?
There were no light blue practice shell in 1946, this did not come in until the 1960 British marking system.
In 1948 light blue indicated an explosive filled SAP piercing shell.
The first zigzag (ZZ) line was used in the 1948- 51 system and with a black Basic Body Colour and was as for 60 - 69 system below. Additionally, there were two black lines to indicate a black Base ejection band in between.
The 60 - 69 system had a black Basic Body Colour, with the 3 x ZZ on the same line as the abbreviated echo symbol interspersed.
After 1969 the BBC was Dark Green.
At that time Britain was still close to South Africa, before apartheid became an issue, so it is likely that they would have marked to our systems.
I hope it is not an explosive SAP!
If that blue is as light as it appears in your picture, it is more SAP light blue because Dark Blue came in at the same time to indicate AP shell.
The usual later practice blue is somewhere in between.
There were no light blue practice shell in 1946, this did not come in until the 1960 British marking system.
In 1948 light blue indicated an explosive filled SAP piercing shell.
The first zigzag (ZZ) line was used in the 1948- 51 system and with a black Basic Body Colour and was as for 60 - 69 system below. Additionally, there were two black lines to indicate a black Base ejection band in between.
The 60 - 69 system had a black Basic Body Colour, with the 3 x ZZ on the same line as the abbreviated echo symbol interspersed.
After 1969 the BBC was Dark Green.
At that time Britain was still close to South Africa, before apartheid became an issue, so it is likely that they would have marked to our systems.
I hope it is not an explosive SAP!
If that blue is as light as it appears in your picture, it is more SAP light blue because Dark Blue came in at the same time to indicate AP shell.
The usual later practice blue is somewhere in between.
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Andy Naude
Well-Known Member
Thank you AE501.
The shell is painted CD 5 46. The Plug is stamped REP and to confuse things even more the case is stamped 1953.
I have two sectioned shells. A light blue HE SUB and dark green RDX / TNT2. Both painted ST 6 67. Similar style of paint work.
I still think that this was converted in South Africa rather than a fake. The blue looks very similar to the HE SUB.
What exactly is HE SUB. Is it a lower HE charge or an inert filling?
The shell is painted CD 5 46. The Plug is stamped REP and to confuse things even more the case is stamped 1953.
I have two sectioned shells. A light blue HE SUB and dark green RDX / TNT2. Both painted ST 6 67. Similar style of paint work.
I still think that this was converted in South Africa rather than a fake. The blue looks very similar to the HE SUB.
What exactly is HE SUB. Is it a lower HE charge or an inert filling?
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HE Substitute is an inert filling for practice shells etc.
The plug is a plug representing fuze.
I have not got the most complete list of maker's marks and cannot find a CD, but there are lists somewhere in the forums, however, if it was GD it would be ROF Glascoed.
It is a pity you cannot find stampings because anyone can stencil anything they want.
The plug is a plug representing fuze.
I have not got the most complete list of maker's marks and cannot find a CD, but there are lists somewhere in the forums, however, if it was GD it would be ROF Glascoed.
It is a pity you cannot find stampings because anyone can stencil anything they want.
Andy Naude
Well-Known Member
If I get the opportunity again, I will look.
Hi Andy
1 When a Weapon is inspected and is found to need scraping and repainted you first of all fill in a form O11 with the details from the weapon if you can't read it all the details off the weapon we then use the label on the box container or brass plaque , If unable to find the info we need we use(UKN ) unknown is then marked on the weapon . You then stencil a number on the driving band on the shell or elsewhere on large weapons which corresponds with the number of the O11
2 The Shell was Filled at Glascoed in 1946 with HE Sub.,Its none explosive . The reason why I think it has a later case fitted is that the round was broken down so that the propellant and primer was removed and replaced with empty or weighted case.
3 Some shell are fired with PRF fitted
Hope this info helps
Ex RNAD Trecwn
1 When a Weapon is inspected and is found to need scraping and repainted you first of all fill in a form O11 with the details from the weapon if you can't read it all the details off the weapon we then use the label on the box container or brass plaque , If unable to find the info we need we use(UKN ) unknown is then marked on the weapon . You then stencil a number on the driving band on the shell or elsewhere on large weapons which corresponds with the number of the O11
2 The Shell was Filled at Glascoed in 1946 with HE Sub.,Its none explosive . The reason why I think it has a later case fitted is that the round was broken down so that the propellant and primer was removed and replaced with empty or weighted case.
3 Some shell are fired with PRF fitted
Hope this info helps
Ex RNAD Trecwn