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57 x 222 query
- Thread starter SG500
- Start date
According the the Maxim Nordenfelt Catalogue
There is a Common Shell, Shrapnel and Canister.
I have put on two data pages. One for the short case and one for the long case. Notice that no AP shell was listed for the Fortress model. It was not intended to fire at hard targets. So in the original scheme of things the short cases would not be loaded with a penetrating projectile. The Germans how ever may have reloaded some of the short casings with a penetrating projectile for firing at our tanks. So what is the correct projectile for German A T use ? It may not be captured Belgian or Russian projectiles as there may not have been any for this case or in any captured rounds. It might be a German made 57mm or captured H.V. 57mm projectile ? I don't know ~
Notice one of the short Fortress barrels on the shop floor.
There is a Common Shell, Shrapnel and Canister.
I have put on two data pages. One for the short case and one for the long case. Notice that no AP shell was listed for the Fortress model. It was not intended to fire at hard targets. So in the original scheme of things the short cases would not be loaded with a penetrating projectile. The Germans how ever may have reloaded some of the short casings with a penetrating projectile for firing at our tanks. So what is the correct projectile for German A T use ? It may not be captured Belgian or Russian projectiles as there may not have been any for this case or in any captured rounds. It might be a German made 57mm or captured H.V. 57mm projectile ? I don't know ~
Notice one of the short Fortress barrels on the shop floor.
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Dave,
I think I have the canister and maybe another one. It is Belgian. I will shoot a photo or two.
My friend TimG tells me the EP stands for Ecole de Pyrotechnie, Antwerp Belgium, whereas Gordon quoted J. Roks a Belgian collector that specializes in cases that it means "Etablishment Pyper" a company in Belgium. Another puzzle in the ordnance world.
John
I think I have the canister and maybe another one. It is Belgian. I will shoot a photo or two.
My friend TimG tells me the EP stands for Ecole de Pyrotechnie, Antwerp Belgium, whereas Gordon quoted J. Roks a Belgian collector that specializes in cases that it means "Etablishment Pyper" a company in Belgium. Another puzzle in the ordnance world.
John
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H
Hoeksel
Guest
First of all, J. Roks is Dutch and not from Belgium. Please do not mix them countries up :tinysmile_fatgrin_t
Personally I have never heard from Etablishment Pyper. But then again, I always believed it to be Ecole de Pyrotechnie without proof.
In my collection I only have the (empty) cannister in good quality with some steel parts on the inside. In case people are interested, it is up for trade.
Personally I have never heard from Etablishment Pyper. But then again, I always believed it to be Ecole de Pyrotechnie without proof.
In my collection I only have the (empty) cannister in good quality with some steel parts on the inside. In case people are interested, it is up for trade.
Turn of the century 1800/1900 6 Pdr projectiles and a bit later.
Left to Right Photo 1
Belgian EP Canister for the short case
Belgian EP Nose fuzed HE for the short case
Nordenfelt Canister for the short case
3 Nordenfelt AP-HE, one copper plated, the first one for the short case, and the next two for the longer case.
VSM (Vickers and Sons Maxim AP-HE for the long case
VSM AP-HE 1936 dated with different rotating band for the long case
Photo 3 shows that the Belgian canister base is marked EP 1897, whereas the Nordenfelt isn't marked. The Belgian HE has an R stamped in its base
Photo 5 shows the very tip of te Belgian HE fuze is stamped EP, dated 1896.
An interesting detail about the VSM projectiles,is that they changed from the Nordenfelt design rotating band, but the base of the projectile remained exactly the same.
It is possible that most of the projectiles would have worked in either case.
Left to Right Photo 1
Belgian EP Canister for the short case
Belgian EP Nose fuzed HE for the short case
Nordenfelt Canister for the short case
3 Nordenfelt AP-HE, one copper plated, the first one for the short case, and the next two for the longer case.
VSM (Vickers and Sons Maxim AP-HE for the long case
VSM AP-HE 1936 dated with different rotating band for the long case
Photo 3 shows that the Belgian canister base is marked EP 1897, whereas the Nordenfelt isn't marked. The Belgian HE has an R stamped in its base
Photo 5 shows the very tip of te Belgian HE fuze is stamped EP, dated 1896.
An interesting detail about the VSM projectiles,is that they changed from the Nordenfelt design rotating band, but the base of the projectile remained exactly the same.
It is possible that most of the projectiles would have worked in either case.
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Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
Was that the one used in the German A7V tank of WW1?
Tony, do you have a cartridge case length for the gun used in the A7V tank? It says on this site, that it used a 5.7cm Maxim-Nordenfelt. There are two case lengths, but most likely the same projectiles. The UK Mark IV males had the 6Pdr gun, the longer of the two. One site says the Germans used a captured Russian gun.
http://www.worldwar2aces.com/panzer-tank/a7v-tank/
http://www.worldwar2aces.com/panzer-tank/a7v-tank/
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Hi I Have a 57X225 Austrian round
Andy
Andy
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Tony,
A number of sources say that the A7V was armed with a Belgian Cockerill-Nordenfelt fortification gun. So, yes this would be the gun on the A7V. Photo from the Imperial War Museum of a captured A7V gun.
The other 3 are from the Belgian Royal Museum, taken of the Belgian gun on a naval mount.
A number of sources say that the A7V was armed with a Belgian Cockerill-Nordenfelt fortification gun. So, yes this would be the gun on the A7V. Photo from the Imperial War Museum of a captured A7V gun.
The other 3 are from the Belgian Royal Museum, taken of the Belgian gun on a naval mount.
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Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure - the case length I know of is around 224mm and I assumed that was the one.
Tony,
There is a big long discussion on the Landships forum that started back in Dec of 2004 regarding the gun on the A7V. Belgium bought patent rights to the Nordenfelt gun, starting out buying guns then buying parts and doing final assembly, and eventually was making all the parts. The theory was that the Russians did the same. The gun in the Imperial War Museum is said to have a Russian nameplate on it, so it isn't known if it was made in Russia, or assembled from Belgian or UK parts, but it appears that the A7V was chambered for the 57 X 222-224R and the Mk IV was chambered for the longer Hotchkiss 75 X 307R. Nordenfelt made ammo for both and guns chambered for both.
There is a big long discussion on the Landships forum that started back in Dec of 2004 regarding the gun on the A7V. Belgium bought patent rights to the Nordenfelt gun, starting out buying guns then buying parts and doing final assembly, and eventually was making all the parts. The theory was that the Russians did the same. The gun in the Imperial War Museum is said to have a Russian nameplate on it, so it isn't known if it was made in Russia, or assembled from Belgian or UK parts, but it appears that the A7V was chambered for the 57 X 222-224R and the Mk IV was chambered for the longer Hotchkiss 75 X 307R. Nordenfelt made ammo for both and guns chambered for both.
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Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
IIRC there's an A7V gun, complete with its sponson mounting, in the Imperial War Museum North in Salford (well, there was when I visited quite a few years ago anyway).
This is the breech
This one appears to be Russian made, under license I would expect. There are more images of it on Landships. These are the basic Nordenfelt Fortress gun for the short case. That 150 of them were mounted on trucks for A.T. use was new to me. From the article it appears that the A7V used Russian made guns as the Belgian ones were used up. The trick would be to be able to identify a round that had been re-issued by the Germans in WW1, perhaps a tall order.
I have just amended my first post. Hazord's Nordenfelt projectiles are excellent, so some thoughts on these. First I don't believe any of the pointed penetrating projectiles were originally loaded in the short cases. These guns were not intended for armor penetrating and their MV was quite low (see first post) The H.V. long 57mm versions did how ever use the three types of projectile used in the short gun. The pointed base fuzed projectile with a flat tip is actually not a penetrating projectile but a base fuzed common shell. It has the flat tip to mimic the ballistics of the PD projectile. This brings us back to the thought that the Germans most likely had a penetrating projectile for the A7V so what was it ? Was there any ammunition captured with the Australian tank and what was it ???
This one appears to be Russian made, under license I would expect. There are more images of it on Landships. These are the basic Nordenfelt Fortress gun for the short case. That 150 of them were mounted on trucks for A.T. use was new to me. From the article it appears that the A7V used Russian made guns as the Belgian ones were used up. The trick would be to be able to identify a round that had been re-issued by the Germans in WW1, perhaps a tall order.
I have just amended my first post. Hazord's Nordenfelt projectiles are excellent, so some thoughts on these. First I don't believe any of the pointed penetrating projectiles were originally loaded in the short cases. These guns were not intended for armor penetrating and their MV was quite low (see first post) The H.V. long 57mm versions did how ever use the three types of projectile used in the short gun. The pointed base fuzed projectile with a flat tip is actually not a penetrating projectile but a base fuzed common shell. It has the flat tip to mimic the ballistics of the PD projectile. This brings us back to the thought that the Germans most likely had a penetrating projectile for the A7V so what was it ? Was there any ammunition captured with the Australian tank and what was it ???
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Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
If 222-224mm is the length of the long 57mm case, what's the length of the short one?
57mm x 224mm
The Germans captured a great many of the Belgian Mfg Nordenfelt guns along with great stores of ammunition. The only three types of shells known to me for this gun are Canister, Base fuzed common and a point fuzed segment shell. The great majority of ammo captured was canister, as these guns were used in forts to sweep the open ground in the event of an infantry breakthrough. In 1916 the Germans rebuilt these guns with a recoil system and mounted them on flat bed trucks for use as anti-tank weapons. At this time, three types of ammunition were designed and Mfg by the Germans. There was a new canister design (I have not ever seen one of these, just a drawing in a manual), a point fuzed HE, to take the place of the black powder filled Belgian Ammo and an internal fuzed APHE for use against tanks (presumably the British MkIV's) The APHE was copied from a Naval design as was the one made also for the 77mm gun. With the HE filling, these had the power to disable or destroy a tank at 2000 meters. The Germans also made and headstamped their own cases. The Belgian guns were used in the AT role and in the A7V Tank, but the next batch of captured guns from Russia went into replacing the 6 pr guns on captured British tanks. The projectiles from the Belgian/Nordenfelt guns are quite differrent from 6Pr projectiles and were not inter changeable (to the best of my knowledge). The information given at the beginning of this thread of a Shrapnel projectile for this gun is interesting. I have never heard of this before and have not seen one. The Austrian headstamp shown is also new to me. I have a Russian Headstamped canister, both types of the German HE and APHE, a Nordenfelt canister and Nose fuzed common and three types of Belgian ammo, canister, segment shell and base fuzed common. Would dearly love to see a shrapnel projectile if any of our friends from faraway have one in their collections.......Oh, one other interesting thing about these guns, my German headstamped cases all predate the first use of British tanks on the Somme in November of 1916. They are dated April, May and June of 1916. Seems the Germans may have had some warning of the new secret weapon after all.....
The Germans captured a great many of the Belgian Mfg Nordenfelt guns along with great stores of ammunition. The only three types of shells known to me for this gun are Canister, Base fuzed common and a point fuzed segment shell. The great majority of ammo captured was canister, as these guns were used in forts to sweep the open ground in the event of an infantry breakthrough. In 1916 the Germans rebuilt these guns with a recoil system and mounted them on flat bed trucks for use as anti-tank weapons. At this time, three types of ammunition were designed and Mfg by the Germans. There was a new canister design (I have not ever seen one of these, just a drawing in a manual), a point fuzed HE, to take the place of the black powder filled Belgian Ammo and an internal fuzed APHE for use against tanks (presumably the British MkIV's) The APHE was copied from a Naval design as was the one made also for the 77mm gun. With the HE filling, these had the power to disable or destroy a tank at 2000 meters. The Germans also made and headstamped their own cases. The Belgian guns were used in the AT role and in the A7V Tank, but the next batch of captured guns from Russia went into replacing the 6 pr guns on captured British tanks. The projectiles from the Belgian/Nordenfelt guns are quite differrent from 6Pr projectiles and were not inter changeable (to the best of my knowledge). The information given at the beginning of this thread of a Shrapnel projectile for this gun is interesting. I have never heard of this before and have not seen one. The Austrian headstamp shown is also new to me. I have a Russian Headstamped canister, both types of the German HE and APHE, a Nordenfelt canister and Nose fuzed common and three types of Belgian ammo, canister, segment shell and base fuzed common. Would dearly love to see a shrapnel projectile if any of our friends from faraway have one in their collections.......Oh, one other interesting thing about these guns, my German headstamped cases all predate the first use of British tanks on the Somme in November of 1916. They are dated April, May and June of 1916. Seems the Germans may have had some warning of the new secret weapon after all.....