What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Was 80x233R Used by Austria-Hungary?

Falcon

Falcon

Well-Known Member
I have seen a case that I believe is an 80x233R. It has what appears to be an Austro-Hungarian headstamp with the double eagle. The case is dated 1918 as far as I remember. From what I have read, this case is for the Czech 8cm VZ.17 field gun. Did this gun exist at the time of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? (Does the "17" in "VZ.17" refer to to 1917?)

I'm sure the headsamp says "8cm VZ.17" this, but I can't check as the case was at a car boot sale but the chap is there regularly. I should see him on Saturday. I will take a ruler as well and check that the case is correct length. If it is cut down, obviously it is no longer worth anything other than its weight in scrap metal. It does actually look like a cut down case from what I can remember (walls too thick at mouth).

I had seen that German 60x64R Boat gun case before on another stall that is there regularly, but I took measurements and researched that such a case existed before buying it, as it looks alot like a cut down ashtray job.

Any help on this case would be appreciated, before I go and waste my money on something that has been cut down or otherwise messed with.
 
Last edited:
76.5 x 233R 8 cm Kanon vz. 17

Dual purpose field/mountain gun.

Used by the Germans on the Atlantic wall as the 7.65 FK17(t)
 
Thanks, was this a Fixed or separately loaded round?

If the chap is there and the case is uncut I'll pick it up.
 
Last edited:
I dont have a huge amount of info on the gun Falcon, I think it was originaly an Austro-Hungarian version of the FK 16 with a different barrel.

I'd imagine it was separate loading.

Incidentally VZ is short for vizor which is 'model' in Czech.

Hope that helps.

BOCN_8cm_VZ_17.jpg
 
ciao
the austrian 8cm M16 was an upgrade of the 8cm M5/8 quick fire gun. was separately load, had longer barrel, longer chamber, more elevation and other I don't rimember. the shells was the same of 8cm M5/8, cases arte marked 8cmM16, and was approx. 80x230R. austrian frequently cut down their own longer case, so it easy find 80x233 case marked 8cm M5/8.
best regards my friends
 
Hi fert, yes it could also be the 8cm M16 77 x 230 R case.

We'll have to wait and see the pictures posted by Falcon when he gets it.

Quatermass
 
Hopefully I should see the chap at the car boot tomorrow, he said he would be there this week. If he has the case and it checks out alright I'll pick it up. I'll post some photos or a drawing of the hstp.
 
Last edited:
The chap was at the boot sale today, I bought the case for 8 after measuring it to ensure it was correct length (233mm). Here is a drawing of the heasdtamp I did in painst as the case head has a too darker patina to photograph. The model number of the gun is badly stamped, but it appears to be the corner of a "5" that is showing next to the "M", so this is obviously a cut down 346R Case, but the fact that it has been properly cut in a lathe and it is of the correct length for the VZ.17 suggests it is the real thing. The patina on the cut also matches the rest of the case. I missed out a few tiny inspectors marks from the drawing, as they are too small to re-create.

Can anyone provide any more info as to what the markings mean?

EDITED FOR REPOST OF DRAWING
80x233r_hstp.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 80x233r_hstp.jpg
    80x233r_hstp.jpg
    16.2 KB · Views: 81
Last edited:
Now we have a lot more members than when this was posted, does anyone have any info on this headstamp?
 
Hello Falcon,

"CS" is the abbreviation for the Factory of Manfred Weiss in "Csepel" , which is today a part of Budapest. Case length is correct, it is a 8 cm M.16 case for separate loading. The 284 mm long case is a cartridge case.
 
Last edited:
ciao
as I say in my previous post it's a cut off 8cm M5 to be fired in 8cm M16 gun.
CS 15 it's the acceptance stamp of Cspel factory who provided the assembly of ammunition.
1915 year of production
380 lot number
8cm M5 model of gun
++ reloading

I enclose some 8cm M5 cases

berndorf case assembled at Komarom state factory (Km)
illegible case assembled at Cspel (CS)
case with original paint markings by Cspel
ENZ case made By Enzdorf civil factory assenbled at Wollersdorf (Wdf)
GR case made by Georg Roth civil factory assembled at Wollersdorf
best regards
 

Attachments

  • BNF.jpg
    BNF.jpg
    97.7 KB · Views: 61
  • CS.jpg
    CS.jpg
    96.6 KB · Views: 62
  • CS marchi.jpg
    CS marchi.jpg
    95.2 KB · Views: 62
  • ENZ.jpg
    ENZ.jpg
    97.2 KB · Views: 60
  • GR.jpg
    GR.jpg
    94.8 KB · Views: 60
Excellent info thanks. The identity of this case is finally solved.

What does the "V" stand for?
 
I'm sorry, for me unknown.
V it's often found on shell cases and shells, I think a sort for acceptance mark.
best regards
 
Thanks for your opinion on the V.

I have also been offered a 75 x 277R case made by Berndorf in 1905. Is this case rare?
 
Last edited:
I also have such case from Berndorf and I am wondering for which country it was produced as this one should have been exported.
 
fert said:
I'm sorry, for me unknown.
V it's often found on shell cases and shells, I think a sort for acceptance mark.
best regards
Click to expand...

The 'V' on Czech cases always appears above the double headed eagle forming the apex of the other two markings. You see the trio of markings large or very small but always the same configuration. No idea what it means mind!

BD
 
Nine years after the last entry in this thread and I manage to get a hold of an M5 case right out of the blue and for free too! A visit to a scrapyard on business yielded this one in surprisingly good condition.....all the more considering the machine it had just been through at the sorting station!
i enclose pictures of the headstamp details as well as the primer assembly that some one at some time had drilled a hole through. Luckily enough metal was left for me to get an extractor in and remove it from the casing.

Bockscar
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    290.8 KB · Views: 43
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    309.7 KB · Views: 24
It's a good thing you were able to save that case.

I sold my example in this thread to another collector a few years back.
 
Falcon, thanks for that!
Most of the larger cases ( Bofors L/60's ) in the basket were battered beyond saving and common anyway. There was a nice 1918 dated 18 Pounder with a crumpled case mouth that could be saved.....if it's still there on my next ( hopefully!) visit, I shall see what I can do!

Bockscar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top