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The "F" on japanese cases

genkideskan

Honoured Member RIP
May be a new thread would be helpful. Lets try to make the "F" problem smaller.
Headstamps are only regarding to caseform, material, alloy, manufacturing.
Mostly headstamps are stamped and could not be changed while reloading ect.,
So any info about charge or projectile would be rubber stamped or painted - so it could be changed or removed easy, if the case would be used several times.
The "F" was only found on "Army" cases? ( or navy and projectiles, primers too)
If we know - only army - only cases - thats a step.
Are there any cases without "F" or other letters?
What is the time frame of "F" cases - only WW.2 ?
Will the "F" be found on steel cases?
If our japanese collectors would be able to have a look at their references or case to ask these questions?
 
Hi,

You may want to check out this page of mine that I just completed the other day:
http://www.japaneseammunition.com/start.php?main_cat=23&sub_cat=191

Actually, I just logged on to BOCN to inform you all of it; I was totally dumbfounded to see your thread precisely about this subject! :p

As for some of your questions:
-Only seen on IJA casings, not on IJN ammo, nor on projectiles.
-IIRC only on Showa era ammo.

Your question about steel casings is an interesting one; unfortunately I don't have any, so I can't check that. :(

I'm very curious to hear the thoughts of you all!

Cheers,
Olafo
 
OK the first results.
Only Army , only cases, only Showa ( 1925 - 1945 ( end of war ).
The "F" is NOT the maker and NOT the date of production.
So we have left -
case construction
alloy
special primer pockets
Questions - Headstamp without an "F" or maybe annother letter.


The "F" on steel cases ?
.
 
Hi,

Upon reading my own previous post, I came to realise that I wasn't very clear in the description of the link. The link in it is not a general link to my site, but rather, to a long dissertation I wrote about the 'F' marking. It shows in detail what I believe to be possibly the correct meaning. :p

Let me know what you think :)

Cheers,
Olafo
 
Ahaaaa :).
Iam sorry I just start a major broadcast to all owners of jpn. cases.
I have several other projects and so didnt have the time to read your site
properly. Now I check your comments about the F.
Reloaded cases where marked with a punshmark - is there any trace of the relation between F and reloading?

Any Fs at steel cases
 
F on steel cases

I have looked at only 2 steel cases, a dummy and an AP. (37 x 166R).
As far as i can tell- the dummy does not have an "F" and the AP seems to have only Kanji marks at the top. I know this does not help much. The markings appear very light on steel and dings do not help. Photos are are almost useless for reading on these cases.
 
Some updates.... I asked a fellow Dutch collector to look on his steel cases: out of all 5 he has, none has the 'F' marking! We might be on to something here!

Meanwhile... I'm also investigating those Russian headstamps. They were almost certainly manufactured (in Russia!) in 1915. The 'F' marking on them might suggest they were reloaded during the Showa era... To be continued, as this needs further research first.

Cheers,
Olafo
 
Alright, a follow-up after having obtained more information:

The Dutch collector told me that the 5 steel casings he has are the following ones: 25x163, 37x165R, 47x285R, 70x101R and 75x185R.
Out of those, the 25x163 is a naval one, so it doesn't count. The headstamp on the 75x185R is illegible, so that one should also be disregarded. The other three, however, are legible, and they do NOT have the 'F' marking. This is strong circumstantial evidence for the 'F' only being present on brass casings!
I hope others can also check their steel casings for the presence/absence of the 'F'.

Then, I also asked the same collector about his Russian 76.2x385R casings. He has two of them. One of them has a virtually identical headstamp to the two specimens in my collection (i.e. also with the 'F'). The other one lacks the 'F'! This is also a very interesting find, as that means that it was then NOT always applied to re-used casings!

It may still be a (re-)loading marking, and again I think it is most likely a marking that was used to indicate the grade of the casing, and it's ability to contain a full charge. Perhaps the steel ones didn't require this marking, as they would have been stronger by design?

So, no final verdict yet, but the plot thickens....

Cheers,
Olafo
 
What a nice project - we still have found out some interesting facts - thanks folks.

I wonder if it is a pre case proof of the disc or cup, they used to draw a case.
The british used a very similar looking F with a number - like F 21.
Ive read this is a code for an annealing process of the brass disc ????
Just an idea.
 
Hi Lothar (and others),

Yes, the results are interesting so far. I've just asked Bougainville too. I hope to have his answers within a few days time.

Then for what you wrote:
I strongly doubt it having to do with the annealing or drawing, especially due to the presence on the Russian casings of the same 'F'. I would assume the Japanese to have had absolutely no influence in the original drawing of those casings, so I really am sticking with a (re-)loading mark, or some mark that is of relevance to the loading process, such as a "brass/case strength marking".

Speaking of those Russian casings in light of all of this. They have me very puzzled. If the 'F' is indeed Showa-only (or perhaps also 'late Taisho'), then there were at least 10 years between the Russian manufacture and the first Japanese usage of them. I'm not certain when the Japanese would have captured them from Russia then, nor why they would still re-use them in the Showa era, when they had their own weapon modernisation programs and did plenty of investigation and development of their own; certainly "around" the 3" calibre, of which they very strongly seemed to favour the 75mm calibre (as evidenced by the variety of casings in that calibre). One possible explanation is the ubiquity of this Russian calibre: maybe vast amounts were captured, or maybe they were not captured at all, but rather SOLD to Japan after WW1 (I can't see them having sold it DURING WW1)... The latter is starting to make a heck of a lot sense to me.

Also, out of the 5 headstamps I've seen in this Russian calibre (that were re-used by the Japanese, that is), 4 of them do have the 'F' and one of them does not. It is then, certainly, not a de-facto reload mark applied to all re-loaded casings.

Next: your 'F 21' remark is interesting. A thing I had forgotten to mention previously, is that some casings do not only have an 'F' at (or around) the 12 o'clock position, but they also have a small number to the bottom-right of it (I've at least seen the number '4' this way on Japanese headstamps). This number is also of interest....

Then, to briefly re-touch the subject of the Meiji and Taisho eras: I have one pure Meiji Japanese headstamp (i.e. 75x104R), and one pure Taisho Japanese headstamp (i.e. 75x295R). Both are from the Osaka arsenal, and both do NOT have the 'F'. Both DO, however, have a single Kanji ideogram around the 12 o'clock position, of which Edokko wrote about the one on the Meiji case, that it is an inspector mark. Edokko is, however, more trained in weapons than in ammo. I suspect that these single Kanji ideograms could reflect the same information that was later indicated with the 'F', whatever it may mean....

I know that the other Dutch collector has some Taisho headstamps. I have several pics of items from his collection. I'll try to see if I can make out 'F's on them.

This topic is not closed yet, but I do feel that we're closing in nicely on it. :)

Cheers,
Olafo
 
OK,
Japan was in war since 1936 - and had an INCIDENT with Russia.
Russia might have delivered guns and ammo to China. The chinese
fought there civil war - nationalists against communists - funny that both
parties fought the japanese too.
Iam very sure that the communists receive help from Russia.

In WW.1 Japan and Russia where allies.
 
The chinese fought there civil war - nationalists against communists - funny that both parties fought the japanese too.

Both the Nationalists and Communists hated the Japanese invaders more...but remember once the Japanese were defeated, civil war resumed with the Communists coming to power in 1949.

Another interesting fact is that the Japanese biggest fear was Chinese unification, which was finally achieved!

On an off note:

"The Tanaka Memorial" - written by Baron Tanaka and presented to the Emperor in 1927, outlines the War strategy that Japan took, leading up to the Campaigns in Manchuria/China in the 1930s and the eventual attack on Pearl Harbour. The reference to this memorial was also mentioned in the US "Why we Fight" series on Japan

The translated copy was done by Carl Crow in 1942 - for those interested it can be still be found (pick up the 1st and only edition a few years back)
[Full book title: "Japan's Dream of World Empire - The Tanaka Memorial" - no ISBN numbers back then]


Cheers
Drew
 
And 1 more Russian / Japanese stamp.
 

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was photo'ing a case for Falcon so did this of my 37 x 164R don't think I've shown it before and thought it might add to the info.DSCF0185.JPG
 
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