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New Addtion No5
- Thread starter MG34NZ
- Start date
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
OK...maybe its just me.... I am no expert..... it looks like a #23 to me.... :tinysmile_eyebrow_t
As for the lever.... never seen that type before.... so couldn't tell you...(check that.....it looks OK)
I am learning too :tinysmile_fatgrin_t
Nice grenade though...
As for the lever.... never seen that type before.... so couldn't tell you...(check that.....it looks OK)
I am learning too :tinysmile_fatgrin_t
Nice grenade though...
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MG34NZ
Well-Known Member
Could well be a No23...just with a No5 base plug fitted.Have no history on it so it could have come from anywhere
Regards
MG34NZ
Hi,
looks ok to me. No 5s did have flat levers, 23s mainly used the ribed ones and it seems like your gren has an unslotted striker, a 23 would have had a slotted one. Centre tubes were made from aluminium, brass or cast iron so thats not wrong for a No 5 either. As for body shape making it a no 23, i dont know how to tell them apart as individual makers were often making slightly different grens throughout the war.
It could be a mishmash pf parts, dont think we will ever know, however it still looks good.
Andy
looks ok to me. No 5s did have flat levers, 23s mainly used the ribed ones and it seems like your gren has an unslotted striker, a 23 would have had a slotted one. Centre tubes were made from aluminium, brass or cast iron so thats not wrong for a No 5 either. As for body shape making it a no 23, i dont know how to tell them apart as individual makers were often making slightly different grens throughout the war.
It could be a mishmash pf parts, dont think we will ever know, however it still looks good.
Andy
No 5 Grenade - CAV Baseplug
CAV is C.A.Vandevell of Acton, Middlesex (London). They manufactured numerous products but were early in the field of automobile electrical gear. One of their associates was Albert Midgely, one of Britain's most talented engineers but largely unknown. He invented the first car dynamo, a single valve radio, first electronic organ etc etc. The interest to this group is his fuze designs, he designed the No 146 fuze (and produced a grenade based on it) and also in WW1 a time fuze for flares. In WW2 he designed a host of fuzes mainly for aerial use but at least one sabotage fuze and was the design force behind the 'W' bomb.
CAV is C.A.Vandevell of Acton, Middlesex (London). They manufactured numerous products but were early in the field of automobile electrical gear. One of their associates was Albert Midgely, one of Britain's most talented engineers but largely unknown. He invented the first car dynamo, a single valve radio, first electronic organ etc etc. The interest to this group is his fuze designs, he designed the No 146 fuze (and produced a grenade based on it) and also in WW1 a time fuze for flares. In WW2 he designed a host of fuzes mainly for aerial use but at least one sabotage fuze and was the design force behind the 'W' bomb.
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pointblank0
BOCN Supporter
No23s were No5 bodies (same casts), the difference was that they were officially changed to be used as a rifle grenade also, so the base plugs were different to allow for this. They were also issued ribbed levers and all were fitted with slotted strikers. I say 'offcially' as No5s also used slotted strikers after a while and some did have heavy base plugs that were threaded and could accept a launching rod. No one could tell from the body if it was to be designated a number 5 or 23 when it was cast, and as you have the correct centre tube and plug, an early un slotted striker, and a very nice, although quite bent lever, I would have it as a very good condition, early number 5. Though, if you really wanted to make sure no questions would be asked, you could get an earlier dated plug for it, maybe late 1915?
I have posted a picture of one of my flat levers if you were wanting to straighten yours out.
Cheers,
Rob
I have posted a picture of one of my flat levers if you were wanting to straighten yours out.
Cheers,
Rob
Attachments
Serial nos
So that's what the number is. It's had me stumped for a while. Being only three digits, is this more of a batch serial than an individual serial? Many thanks for that Norman.
Tom.
So that's what the number is. It's had me stumped for a while. Being only three digits, is this more of a batch serial than an individual serial? Many thanks for that Norman.
Tom.
Attachments
Serial Nos
:tinysmile_shy_t: Sorry Tom I didn't write that very well did I? A serial number for each grenade would be good but I think not; as you know better than I just on CAV Contract 1801, for 999996 No 23s, puts that into the very unlikely category. I expect it is a lot or batch, or even a mould, number. I couldn't quite work out with my eyesight whether or not the number was impressed after casting or during. What do you think?
Serial nos.
It would appear a particularly dumb comment from me.:tinysmile_shy_t: I'll put my brain into gear before hitting the keyboard... I did mean a lot/batch number or an individual mould serial, as these CAV bodies don't use a segment sized letter or number often used by other makers. I'm leaning more to the possibility that it is a mould serial and so was impressed during casting. There are other markings under the lever which are just as crisp and were clearly on the mould master, plus it would still be a significant effort to post-stamp the bodies with a batch number after casting. Also somewhat superfluous as batch markings would be labelled on the boxes in which the grenades were sent to the filling stations.
Tom.
It would appear a particularly dumb comment from me.:tinysmile_shy_t: I'll put my brain into gear before hitting the keyboard... I did mean a lot/batch number or an individual mould serial, as these CAV bodies don't use a segment sized letter or number often used by other makers. I'm leaning more to the possibility that it is a mould serial and so was impressed during casting. There are other markings under the lever which are just as crisp and were clearly on the mould master, plus it would still be a significant effort to post-stamp the bodies with a batch number after casting. Also somewhat superfluous as batch markings would be labelled on the boxes in which the grenades were sent to the filling stations.
Tom.
Serial Nos
Not at all. The WW1 (No 23) specs refer to inspection but don't give the lot sizes for individual components. Any ideas? Can't see it in MoM History.
Not at all. The WW1 (No 23) specs refer to inspection but don't give the lot sizes for individual components. Any ideas? Can't see it in MoM History.
Lot/batch sizes
I've not found lot sizes for individual components anywhere, and I've specifically searched for brass c-ps, and slotted strikers for 5/23MkI.
My take on the inspection stuff is that if components amounting to 5%+ are found to be faulty on the complete grenade, the lot of the complete grenade, rather than just the component at fault, will be rejected.
Tom.
I've not found lot sizes for individual components anywhere, and I've specifically searched for brass c-ps, and slotted strikers for 5/23MkI.
My take on the inspection stuff is that if components amounting to 5%+ are found to be faulty on the complete grenade, the lot of the complete grenade, rather than just the component at fault, will be rejected.
Tom.
MG34NZ
Well-Known Member
Thanks Rob,Great info.
I will attempt to rebend the lever as per your pics.
An early base plug would be nice I only have a couple of plugs including the one pictured and at 3/16 its the earlyest the other is a mills munitions 4/16
Theres no lott/batch numbers on the body only the segment under the lever with C cast into it so safe to assume its not a CAV body.
Regards
Andrew/MG34NZ
pointblank0
BOCN Supporter
There are not many manufacturers of 5s and 23s that put makers marks on the body, though some did (K being one of them). These were usually done on all 36s as far as I'm aware. Don't worry about the baseplug, I doubt anyone is going to dismantle it anyway!
Cjeers,
Rob
Cjeers,
Rob
MG34NZ
Well-Known Member
Hi Guys, Heres the result of the lever strightening and rebending operation.Now it looks the part. Thanks Rob and John for the pics of your grenade and levers.
Pictured it sitting with my other No5s and a No23, the sum total of my WWI Mills Bomb selection
Cheers
Andrew/MG34NZ
Pictured it sitting with my other No5s and a No23, the sum total of my WWI Mills Bomb selection
Cheers
Andrew/MG34NZ
Attachments
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Good job well done Andrew, you have a nice set of grens there.
As for makers names being stamped on the gren bodies, there was no requirement for this until the introduction of the No 23/3 and then the No 36. However some No 5s were maker marked, i have seen CAV stamped on a No 5 body and the letter K on several but this was a casting mark as none had the 'stars' to signify it was made by Kenricks. One of the most common marks was a shield but have no idea what this signified. Probably made by a prolific gren producer.
Andy
As for makers names being stamped on the gren bodies, there was no requirement for this until the introduction of the No 23/3 and then the No 36. However some No 5s were maker marked, i have seen CAV stamped on a No 5 body and the letter K on several but this was a casting mark as none had the 'stars' to signify it was made by Kenricks. One of the most common marks was a shield but have no idea what this signified. Probably made by a prolific gren producer.
Andy
pointblank0
BOCN Supporter
Yeah. Really nice collection there mate. All in good condition.