6Pr SAP

[Bonnex]

Norman,

The Broad arrow within an oval, is, as you state pertinent to the steel, it is a 'material transfer stamp' and found on forged projectiles. If the steel bar stock passes the various test criteria it is stamped as such and any projectiles made from that specific piece of steel are stamped to show the source material had passed the tests.

The number following the A is probably the lot number of the heat treatment.

TimG

Thanks Tim. I have the stamp listed as GAS 23 [which presumably stands for Gun Ammunition Shell stamp No 23] in a WW1 Ministry of Munitions document. Other series of stamps include GA (Gun Ammunition), GAC (Cartridges) and GAF (Fuzes). You are probably familiar with this document. Do you know if there is a WW2 equivalent?

Krt7,92 - I am glad to see that you are not going to repaint the shell. It is very likely that the shell body is stamped. You might try laying a plain sheet of paper on the body and lightly rubbing a soft pencil over it (as in "brass rubbing").​

 

[Burney Davis]

The driving band shows signs of wear and rounding ,yet the paint is unaffected in that area?

Following on from our NZ friend's observation on the rounding of the driving band, if you take a close look at the smaller grooves in the band it looks like there are the remains of plating showing. The base also looks very bright for what one might expect for a round with original paint. It's always difficult to be certain about things from pictures alone but IMHO this is a Mk V WW1 vintage projectile that has been plated at some point, then removed and repainted.

 

[Krt7.92]

About the plating: I think you're right. At some places where the paint wore off, it looks very bright, just like the base.

 

[super7]

Now this shell is in my possession and the search continues.

Regards, Jan
Western Front Museum (14-18)

 

[wingsofwrath]

There is some logic to it if you take the two black rings to mean "Practice, HE Filled", the white ring to mean "SAP" and the red ring to be "Filled" and assume that, for whatever reason, it's only missing the green ring for the TNT filling, but even then I'd expect the sequence to be, from the tip of the projectile: White-Red, Green-Black, Black - at least according to the 1936 and 1942 manuals. And this is completely theoretical, I've never seen an actual shell marked like this.

Please excuse the fact my drawing has the wrong driving band, it's on the base of an 1880s export VSM I already had drawn up rather then the proper 6-pdr Hotchkiss.

 

[super7]

We can agree on the fact that the colour scheme and lettering on this shell is not in accordance with the official documents. Has someone repainted the shell based on something else? No idea. What I do know is that this type of shell is most likely WW1 and probably used for a British Male tank. The Australian War Memorial has a similar shell in their collection (unfortunately without paint and no markings): 6 pdr QF Mark XIII AP Shell and dates it to 1916. On another forum someone posted an identical shell with engraving and also the date 1916 (also without paint but similar condition).

Regards, Jan
Western Front Museum (14-18)

 

[wingsofwrath]

We can agree on the fact that the colour scheme and lettering on this shell is not in accordance with the official documents. Has someone repainted the shell based on something else? No idea. What I do know is that this type of shell is most likely WW1 and probably used for a British Male tank. The Australian War Memorial has a similar shell in their collection (unfortunately without paint and no markings): 6 pdr QF Mark XIII AP Shell and dates it to 1916. On another forum someone posted an identical shell with engraving and also the date 1916 (also without paint but similar condition).

Regards, Jan

Agreed. It's definitely a Hotchkiss common pointed steel shell from a QF 6pdr naval gun from the 1890s, also used in WW1 tanks.

Speaking of which, another problem I have with the paint of this particular projectile is the fact the base paint is yellow, because I'd expect such a shell to be filled with FG (Fine, Glazed) black powder rather than any manner of HE. In fact, all the examples of this particular shell I've seen are all black with a white-red ring near the top denoting "SAP" and "Filled" respectively.

Take this nice example from the Chapel Bay Fort Museum in Pembrokeshire, Wales, or this other one from the Bovington Tank Museum:

 

[ozziammo]

Agreed. It's definitely a Hotchkiss common pointed steel shell from a QF 6pdr naval gun from the 1890s, also used in WW1 tanks.

Speaking of which, another problem I have with the paint of this particular projectile is the fact the base paint is yellow, because I'd expect such a shell to be filled with FG (Fine, Glazed) black powder rather than any manner of HE. In fact, all the examples of this particular shell I've seen are all black with a white-red ring near the top denoting "SAP" and "Filled" respectively.

Take this nice example from the Chapel Bay Fort Museum in Pembrokeshire, Wales, or this other one from the Bovington Tank Museum:

apologies for hijacking this thread but would you have another version of this picture showing the marked projectile bottom section & or label, please?

 

[wingsofwrath]

apologies for hijacking this thread but would you have another version of this picture showing the marked projectile bottom section & or label, please?

There you go, it's a 60-pdr: https://www.alamy.com/artillery-she...le-pembrokeshire-wales-uk-image218283645.html

 

[ozziammo]

There you go, it's a 60-pdr: https://www.alamy.com/artillery-she...le-pembrokeshire-wales-uk-image218283645.html

Thank you for the pic. Regards Ozzi.

 

[super7]

Good point and well spotted. It looks like I need to reconsider about repainting my 6 Pr shell.

Take this nice example from the Chapel Bay Fort Museum in Pembrokeshire, Wales, or this other one from the Bovington Tank Museum.

 

[wingsofwrath]

Good point and well spotted. It looks like I need to reconsider about repainting my 6 Pr shell.

I don't know, personally, I'd still keep it around as it is, because we've got a sample of one and we don't know it's not some experimental thing from the 1920s where they actually had one filled with HE and painted using some obscure rulebook that was in place for half a year...
Or just the guy who painted it didn't know the rulebook very well and improvised.

After all, the paint itself looks fairly old, although, at this time I don't think I could tell apart something painted in the 20s and something repainted in the 50s by a misguided collector.

 

[super7]

Good point, and yes, the current paint has some fading suggesting it has been their for quite sometime. Will keep the repaint option on the backburner for now.