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  1. #1
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    Please help ID 3cm / 30mm

    Hello,

    I recently had the opportunity to photograph this 3cm / 30mm AP-T projectile. I have a hunch it could be an early postwar piece.
    Can anyone ID it?

    Description:
    AP-T projectile, hard(ned) core and ballistic cap.
    Calibre: 3cm / 30 mm.
    Length: approx.11 cm
    Drivingband: copper, wide approx. 8mm
    Base to Db: approx. 17 mm
    Db to bourellet: approx. 35 mm.
    Cap thread: approx.12 mm , tightens clockwise.

    In advance, thanks very much!

    20190630_204801.jpg
    20190630_204825.jpg20190630_205315.jpg20190630_204911.jpg
    Last edited by pzgr40/42; 30th June 2019 at 09:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hi There,

    I'm convinced that what you have there is a French 30mm DEFA Projectile.

    I have a complete AP-T round although the projectile is crimped into the case and the ballistic cap appears to be crimped, not threaded.
    Measurements as follows:

    Total Projectile Length: 104mm
    Base to Db: 17mm
    Db to Ballistic Cap: 29mm
    Db Width: 8mm
    Ballistic Cap Length: 50mm

    What convinces me most is the driving band design (see photo) and the extra groove on projectile body below drive band. 30mm DEFAs I have in my collection and have seen elsewhere come with a couple of differing db designs. One is the db on our AP projectiles with differing slopes top and bottom and a grooved db which i've only seen on TP and non service rounds.

    I also have a British 30mm AP ADEN round, the projectile of which, like yours can be stripped down (see photos).
    As far as I know and have seen Aden drive bands are of one type only which is a symmetrical band also 8mm wide.

    The distance from db to ballistic cap is a lot shorter but this might either be because it's not a tracer or because your cap screws into the projectile body whereas the cap on Aden screws onto the projectile body. Drive band is typical of and the only type i've ever seen on Adens.
    Measurements as follows:

    Total Projectile Length: 107mm
    Base to Db: 17mm
    Db to Ballistic Cap: 22mm
    Db Width: 8mm
    Ballistic Cap Length: 60mm
    Tungsten Core Length & Bore: 53mm & 17mm

    I have seen both copper and steel drive bands on DEFA projectiles but only copper on ADENs.

    Is the tungsten core in yours removable or is it set in the body?

    Maybe there are slight design changes over the years and that is why there are slight differences in some measurements but it's definately a projectile of one of the above, both of which were developed from the WW2 German 30mm MK-108 ammunition.

    Hope this has helped.

    Bear.

    20200108_141635.jpg20200108_141919.jpg20200108_142007.jpg20200108_142509.jpg20200108_142541.jpg20200108_141148.jpg

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to BEAR64 For This Useful Post:

    ron3350 (9th January 2020)

  4. #3
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    Hi,

    It is a French 30mm OPIT (API-T) close to this one :

    Image23.jpg

    Cheers,

    S.
    Last edited by sgdbdr; 8th January 2020 at 10:12 PM.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdbdr View Post
    Hi,

    It is a French 30mm OPIT (API-T) close to this one :

    Image23.jpg

    Cheers,

    S.

    Core of OPIT is different
    Any Live or Dug ordnance shown by me has been disposed of by EOD personnel .

  6. #5
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    I have the book 'Les Canons de Bord a Barillet 30 mm DEFA et Lurs Munitions' (link) which covers the development of French 30 mm DEFA cannon and their ammunition, in addition to the later 30M791. Nowhere in this book is there a projectile that matches this.

    For note, and according to the aforementioned book, the driving bands of French 30 mm DEFA ammunition were originally copper alloy (tombac) and later changed to sintered iron. To quote what I wrote about the '30-550 cannon series ammunition' for the Jane's publication 'Jane's Weapons: Air Launched' when rewriting the DEFA series of cannons entry (so if it's wrong, it's my fault).

    Changes were also made to this series driving band material due to problems caused by the original’s copper alloy (tombac) bands and the fouling they deposited in the barrel. This fouling would build-up and eventually be transferred to the front of the driving band of some later subsequently-fired projectile. The fouling deposit was found to cause variation in the drag and the spin decay of the projectile, this because it adhered to the front of the driving band and then ‘feathered out’ after exiting the bore. This feathered fouling increased the drag and spin decay of the projectile and this affected the self-destruct time and distance of the fuze. The problem was first remedied by mixing soft iron (sintered) banded ammunition with that of the tombac, in a 1:5 to 1:15 ratio. The tombac fouling that had adhered to the similar banded projectiles did not adhere to those using a sintered iron driving band, the fouling actually pushed out and removed by them. Tombac banded rounds would eventually be completely replaced with those of iron, even though this caused increased barrel wear.

    Sorry, I forgot to add this. At a guess, due to its driving band type and shape, plus its core shape and dimensions, this is likely a British AP-T, or experimental AP-T. The placement of the tracer in the rear would necessitate a revised positioning of the core, hence the different method used for the attachment of the ballistic cap in comparison to the AP Mk 1*Z (sometimes seen as AP Mk 1/Z).Your best bet is contacting Tony Williams, as he's a cannon ammunition expert. I personally have very little historical and otherwise information on ADEN ammunition.
    Last edited by Eggburt1969; 9th January 2020 at 09:48 PM.

  7. #6
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    Hello,

    Thanks for all your answers!

    I've dug into my library and found something that may be closest yet.
    W. de Hek identified a German WW2 3cm Hartkern round which profile and dimensions come very close to my "unknown".

    This makes me think in the direction of "very early post war" even more, as , for all similarities, it still is not the same thing (de Hek's is an AP , not an AP-T).
    Lack of any markings to me seem to rule out WW2 German.
    Note that most dimensions, are the same (especially obvious with the cap), with the exception of the part below the crimping grooves.
    The thread on the cap differs though.
    DB profile looks the same as well: "short incline on top, more gradual on the lower part).

    As ever ... any info welcome!

    20200111_161100.jpg20200111_161304.jpg20200111_161426.jpg
    20200111_161721.jpg
    20200111_161514.jpg
    Last edited by pzgr40/42; 11th January 2020 at 04:51 PM.

  8. #7
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    Hi,

    I may be wrong but all WW2 AP cannon ammunition I have, and have seen, have steel projectile bodies with either a hardened tip or hardened steel/tungsten core with ballistic cap. I have only seen post WW2 projectile types that have alloy/aluminium body like your example and the ADEN/DEFA's I have.

    Have you got the index for the letter pointers on your drawings? If so you can translate and find out what the projectile body was made from.

    The projectile you have is very close to one of the drawing examples you have but as I said in my first post that ADEN & DEFA ammunition was developed directly from that used by Germany in their MK101/103 & MK108 cannon. A lot of German weapons and technology captured at the end of the war was studied and used in new developments.

    I feel your projectile may possibly be a very early example of those developments.

    Hope this helps.

    Bear

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEAR64 View Post
    Hi,

    I may be wrong but all WW2 AP cannon ammunition I have, and have seen, have steel projectile bodies with either a hardened tip or hardened steel/tungsten core with ballistic cap. I have only seen post WW2 projectile types that have alloy/aluminium body like your example and the ADEN/DEFA's I have.

    Bear
    BEAR64 here's three WWII German AP projectile examples for aircraft cannon with aluminium alloy bodies and nose caps, and heavy metal (WC) cores: 15 mm, 30 mm and 37 mm.

    15 mm H Pzgr o Zerl (15×96)

    15 mm H Pzgr o Zerl.jpg


    30 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl (30×184)

    30 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl.png

    37 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl (37×264)

    37 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl.png

  10. #9
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    Thanks for that info Eggburt1969.

    It's always of great value to learn something new from fellow enthusiasts, one of the things I love about this site!

    Bear.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEAR64 View Post
    Thanks for that info Eggburt1969.

    It's always of great value to learn something new from fellow enthusiasts, one of the things I love about this site!

    Bear.
    No problem Bear.

    Oh, and there were 20 mm versions too.

    FLADIA12.jpg

 

 
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