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Please help ID 3cm / 30mm

P

pzgr40/42

Well-Known Member
Hello,

I recently had the opportunity to photograph this 3cm / 30mm AP-T projectile. I have a hunch it could be an early postwar piece.
Can anyone ID it?

Description:
AP-T projectile, hard(ned) core and ballistic cap.
Calibre: 3cm / 30 mm.
Length: approx.11 cm
Drivingband: copper, wide approx. 8mm
Base to Db: approx. 17 mm
Db to bourellet: approx. 35 mm.
Cap thread: approx.12 mm , tightens clockwise.

In advance, thanks very much!

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Hi There,

I'm convinced that what you have there is a French 30mm DEFA Projectile.

I have a complete AP-T round although the projectile is crimped into the case and the ballistic cap appears to be crimped, not threaded.
Measurements as follows:

Total Projectile Length: 104mm
Base to Db: 17mm
Db to Ballistic Cap: 29mm
Db Width: 8mm
Ballistic Cap Length: 50mm

What convinces me most is the driving band design (see photo) and the extra groove on projectile body below drive band. 30mm DEFAs I have in my collection and have seen elsewhere come with a couple of differing db designs. One is the db on our AP projectiles with differing slopes top and bottom and a grooved db which i've only seen on TP and non service rounds.

I also have a British 30mm AP ADEN round, the projectile of which, like yours can be stripped down (see photos).
As far as I know and have seen Aden drive bands are of one type only which is a symmetrical band also 8mm wide.

The distance from db to ballistic cap is a lot shorter but this might either be because it's not a tracer or because your cap screws into the projectile body whereas the cap on Aden screws onto the projectile body. Drive band is typical of and the only type i've ever seen on Adens.
Measurements as follows:

Total Projectile Length: 107mm
Base to Db: 17mm
Db to Ballistic Cap: 22mm
Db Width: 8mm
Ballistic Cap Length: 60mm
Tungsten Core Length & Bore: 53mm & 17mm

I have seen both copper and steel drive bands on DEFA projectiles but only copper on ADENs.

Is the tungsten core in yours removable or is it set in the body?

Maybe there are slight design changes over the years and that is why there are slight differences in some measurements but it's definately a projectile of one of the above, both of which were developed from the WW2 German 30mm MK-108 ammunition.

Hope this has helped.

Bear.

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Hi,

It is a French 30mm OPIT (API-T) close to this one :

Image23.jpg

Cheers,

S.
 
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I have the book 'Les Canons de Bord a Barillet 30 mm DEFA et Lurs Munitions' (link) which covers the development of French 30 mm DEFA cannon and their ammunition, in addition to the later 30M791. Nowhere in this book is there a projectile that matches this.

For note, and according to the aforementioned book, the driving bands of French 30 mm DEFA ammunition were originally copper alloy (tombac) and later changed to sintered iron. To quote what I wrote about the '30-550 cannon series ammunition' for the Jane's publication 'Jane's Weapons: Air Launched' when rewriting the DEFA series of cannons entry (so if it's wrong, it's my fault).

Changes were also made to this series driving band material due to problems caused by the original’s copper alloy (tombac) bands and the fouling they deposited in the barrel. This fouling would build-up and eventually be transferred to the front of the driving band of some later subsequently-fired projectile. The fouling deposit was found to cause variation in the drag and the spin decay of the projectile, this because it adhered to the front of the driving band and then ‘feathered out’ after exiting the bore. This feathered fouling increased the drag and spin decay of the projectile and this affected the self-destruct time and distance of the fuze. The problem was first remedied by mixing soft iron (sintered) banded ammunition with that of the tombac, in a 1:5 to 1:15 ratio. The tombac fouling that had adhered to the similar banded projectiles did not adhere to those using a sintered iron driving band, the fouling actually pushed out and removed by them. Tombac banded rounds would eventually be completely replaced with those of iron, even though this caused increased barrel wear.

Sorry, I forgot to add this. At a guess, due to its driving band type and shape, plus its core shape and dimensions, this is likely a British AP-T, or experimental AP-T. The placement of the tracer in the rear would necessitate a revised positioning of the core, hence the different method used for the attachment of the ballistic cap in comparison to the AP Mk 1*Z (sometimes seen as AP Mk 1/Z).Your best bet is contacting Tony Williams, as he's a cannon ammunition expert. I personally have very little historical and otherwise information on ADEN ammunition.
 
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Hello,

Thanks for all your answers!

I've dug into my library and found something that may be closest yet.
W. de Hek identified a German WW2 3cm Hartkern round which profile and dimensions come very close to my "unknown".

This makes me think in the direction of "very early post war" even more, as , for all similarities, it still is not the same thing (de Hek's is an AP , not an AP-T).
Lack of any markings to me seem to rule out WW2 German.
Note that most dimensions, are the same (especially obvious with the cap), with the exception of the part below the crimping grooves.
The thread on the cap differs though.
DB profile looks the same as well: "short incline on top, more gradual on the lower part).

As ever ... any info welcome!

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Hi,

I may be wrong but all WW2 AP cannon ammunition I have, and have seen, have steel projectile bodies with either a hardened tip or hardened steel/tungsten core with ballistic cap. I have only seen post WW2 projectile types that have alloy/aluminium body like your example and the ADEN/DEFA's I have.

Have you got the index for the letter pointers on your drawings? If so you can translate and find out what the projectile body was made from.

The projectile you have is very close to one of the drawing examples you have but as I said in my first post that ADEN & DEFA ammunition was developed directly from that used by Germany in their MK101/103 & MK108 cannon. A lot of German weapons and technology captured at the end of the war was studied and used in new developments.

I feel your projectile may possibly be a very early example of those developments.

Hope this helps.

Bear
 
BEAR64 said:
Hi,

I may be wrong but all WW2 AP cannon ammunition I have, and have seen, have steel projectile bodies with either a hardened tip or hardened steel/tungsten core with ballistic cap. I have only seen post WW2 projectile types that have alloy/aluminium body like your example and the ADEN/DEFA's I have.

Bear
Click to expand...

BEAR64 here's three WWII German AP projectile examples for aircraft cannon with aluminium alloy bodies and nose caps, and heavy metal (WC) cores: 15 mm, 30 mm and 37 mm.

15 mm H Pzgr o Zerl (15[FONT=&amp]×96[/FONT])

15 mm H Pzgr o Zerl.jpg


30 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl (30×184)

30 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl.png

37 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl (37×264)

37 mm H Pzgr L'spur o Zerl.png
 
Thanks for that info Eggburt1969.

It's always of great value to learn something new from fellow enthusiasts, one of the things I love about this site!

Bear.
 
Are these a lot rarer than the steel body AP rounds because i've never seen them before, not even in photographs?
 
Hey Bear,

Just make an on site search using "Hartkern". That should turn up some info.
As for rarity ... WW2 (German) Hartkern projectiles/rounds are indeed harder to come by in most calibres than "normal" German AP ammo. 30x184/B being an exception to that rule.
Is "Hartkern" ammo truly rare ... no simpel answer to that one, as there is such variety in types and calibres. Some really are, some can be easier to find.
The main thing is, at least, I think it is, .. all are very much sought after, so collectors tend to stick to them. So prices can be ridiculous.
Finding any in prime condition is a lot harder as well.
 
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