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Lead seal/jointing on 60 Pdr shrapnel ogive

starshell

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Good evening,

Would anyone know the process used for applying the Lead seal/joint on 60 Pdr shrapnel shells, between the body and ogive, during the First War?

I'm assuming the Lead was turned to profile on a lathe after having been applied but how was it actually fixed to the shell? Lead strip hammered into place?
Lead bar stock gently heated and applied with a dabbing motion to build it up?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance!
 
The drawing refers to it as 'solder' I would imagine a similar process to 'wiped joints' (plumbing).

TimG
 
Sure it is pure lead and not lead-tin? The documents call it "solder". Because of it's function as a washer I think soldering is the only way. And I guess it also must have been so tightly fixed that it couldn't fall apart when firing. Otherwise it could cause bad accidents.
 
I thought the joints were silver soldered. 15 pounders I have with the brass fuze socket soldered to the ogive are soldered with a material much harder than soft lead solder.
 
Many thanks for the replies TimG and Alpini,

It hadn't crossed my mind that it could be Solder. Any ideas as to how it would have been applied? I'm guessing a bar of Lead-tin solder heated and dabbed onto the join to build it up then turned on a lathe to profile?
Cheers.
 
See here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyVH0NAHbQ (4mins onwards)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZH1tA3i6bY

Somewhere out there, there is an excellent film by the GPO on jointing big telephone cables, can't find it at the moment..

The areas you don't want solder are painted with 'plumbers' black'. If one had a template with an internal radius of 9.92", you could make the final wipe with that and there would be no need for turning.

TimG
 
Many thanks TimG,

I'm with ron3350 on that one. Excellent clips indeed. And made to look so easy. Not sure if the wife would tolerate a hot cauldron of molten Solder in the front room, or using her soup ladles, oven gloves, etc, but maybe she'd respect the authenticity of the project and even encourage it? ....( As I'm picking out the Solder spatter from the singed carpet.....)

But a great reference and certainly food for thought. I'll look into this further and try a few test runs first on a mock up.
Many thanks to all for the input.
Cheers.
 
Starshell,

As you're in the South, you could pay Amberley Museum https://www.amberleymuseum.co.uk/discover a visit. One of the many crafts displayed is plumbing, by the Worshipful Company of Plumbers www.amberleymuseum.co.uk/worshipful-company-of-plumbers It's traditional plumbing, no 15mm pipe or compression fittings. The staff are very approachable and I think would be very willing to advise you. The last time I was there, they were casting parts for decorative lead guttering and welding (their term) the parts together. They are in regular, but not in permanent attendance, so 'phone ahead. The museum is well worth a visit.

TimG
 
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9Pr RML .jpegMy 9Pdr RML Shrapnel projectile from a previous thread has solder at the joints.
I cannot say it is original but it is hard.
 
IMG_4758.jpgIMG_4759.jpgIMG_4755.jpgIMG_4757.jpgIMG_4756.jpg


Good evening,

Many thanks TimG for the heads up regarding Amberley museum. Its certainly a place I'll visit, I'm interested in all things historical and industrial, and Amberley seems to encompass all of that. And of course the added plus of the Plumbing section....

For members information, attached is an image of a 60Pdr Mk 1 Shrapnel, dated 1908 I have with an almost perfect Soldered join. (inert and FFE of course!).
If I can replicate this on the humble 60Pdr stream lined type currently undergoing restoration, I shall be a happy chap...
Again, many thanks to all for the input on this subject.
 
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I wonder if the solder was may be applied only to the steel head which was pressed against the shell body when it was assembled?

The following picture I found at https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/33845598496/in/photostream/ and it shows the filling with lead balls. One steel head is visible in the background on the right side of the woman. I think they weighed the filled shell together with the steel head and compared the weight with the complete shell on the scale in foreground. If the steel head in the background was without the solder I guess it wasn't a good weight comparsion.
 

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Incredible picture Alpini,

Are these 60 Pdrs with economy driving band?
I'm wondering if that 'calibrating' shell on the scale was at a weight prior to Solder going on, then further along the line another fully pinned and Soldered 'calibrating' shell was used at the solder stage?? I don't know.

Looking at the castellated rings in the foreground, what were they used for? I can only think they were pushed into the shell body after filling with the Lead bullets to check for hole clearance before the head proper was fitted? (On second thoughts, scrub that idea. They look too small diameter wise....)
Still, its a superb image all the same. Wonder how many of these woman suffered the effects of Lead later on?

Many thanks!
 
It's interesting that she is filling the upturned nosecone with the shrapnel balls directly on top of the wooden block. I've never seen a wooden block with the remains of resin on it so I wonder how they stayed in place when the top was put on the body.
 
I would suggest this is a staged photo' in relation to the 'finished' projectile on the scales. There are numerous other operations, such as adding the resin, adding wood block and felt washer etc., which are carried out after adding the bullets, these would be carried out at different stations and would significantly add to the weight.

TimG
 
60 Pdr lead seal....

Further to a post I put here a while back regarding the process of applying the lead/solder 'seal' to 60 Pdr shrapnel projectiles, (to finish a restoration project I'm undertaking on a 60 Pdr 'streamlined' shell), I've found a fairly decent alternative.

After fitting the ogive to the shell body, I seriously considered using lead/solder to seal the recess between the two, but the mess and toxic dangers it would have produced put me off, as well as not having any experience in the process anyway. It would have ended up a dogs dinner.

After a lot of experimenting, I found a Grey 2 part epoxy Steel resin called JB Weld, which when sanded looks the colour of aged solder or lead. It looks relatively ok I think, and its easy to work.
For anyone looking to restore similar, it might be worth looking into. (Apologies for the sidewards pics...)

Cheers!IMG_5051.jpgIMG_5052.jpgIMG_5053.jpgIMG_5054.jpg
 
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