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Czech 30-MM X 210

jvollenberg

Well-Known Member
Ordnance approved
Czech 30-MM X 210 Blank

Length: 261-MM

Thoughts?

Joe
 

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Notes from my forthcoming book:

30 x 211 M53

This round was first designed at the Czechoslovak Brno factory, then developed under WW2 German occupation for the MK 303 anti-aircraft gun. After the war, the Czechs decided to continue with its development and it emerged along with the M53 cannon. The ammunition was also produced in Serbia. It is unique to the M53 gun.

The steel-cased rimless cartridge is the biggest and most powerful of all of the service 30 mm rounds, and has often been designated the 30 x 220 (it may also be designated 30 x 210). The steel cartridge case is rimless and bottlenecked, and contains 195 g of propellant generating 314 MPa chamber pressure. There are either one or two crimping grooves in the neck. The overall round length is 332 mm and the total weight is 1.15 kg.

The standard loading was a nose-fuzed 435 g HE-T SD fired at 1,000 m/s; there was also a conventional AP-T with matching ballistics, said to penetrate 55 mm of conventional steel armour at 500 m/0°. Yugoimport marketed an HE-T designated M69 (made by Sloboda Chachak), fitted with a super-quick action impact fuze with mechanical self-destruct; the fuze burned for four seconds. Yugoimport also marketed the M78 action-testing break-up round loaded with a 250 g plastic projectile filled with iron powder; this broke up after leaving the muzzle. There were some interesting experimental loadings being worked on for this cartridge that were curtailed by the end of the Cold War. One was an APFSDS round, another was a fin-stabilised HEAT round – most unusual in such a small calibre, and designed for a smooth-bored barrel.
 
Tony,

The data I have in an old Yugoslav ammunition book from 1974 differs quite a lot from your data, but the information in a later Yugoimport is closer to your figures for the Yugoslav HE and blank ammo.

The old Yugoslav book also shows the JPZSv anti-armour round as being an armour piercing composite rigid (APNR), or high-velocity armor-piercing (HVAP) to the Americans. It had an incendiary compound (RDX and aluminium) along with wax and cardboard in the cavity below the ballistic cap and a tracer in the base of its steel main body (sleeve). Its core is just described as special steel, no mention of tungsten, though that doesn't rule it out as being part of the alloy. Penetration is given as 55 mm at 600 m at 0°, and 60 mm at 400 m, so 57.5 mm at 500 m as the drop is linear with distance.

Anyway, here are a few pages from the old book...

Old book 2.pngOld book 3.pngOld book 1.pngOld book 4.png

And from the Yugoimport brochure.

Yugoimport 1.jpgYugoimport 2.jpg

Neil
 
From my collection
Left to right

1. JFSv HE-T
2. JPZSv API-T
3. JNhSv TP-T
4. JNhSv TP-T (from reworked HE-T)
5. JNh TP
6. VYDRA II (Experimental)
7. 30 Ṧk Dummy
8. Dummy or Tool cartridge, i don't know
9. Yugoslavian Dummy
 

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Tony,

The data I have in an old Yugoslav ammunition book from 1974 differs quite a lot from your data, but the information in a later Yugoimport is closer to your figures for the Yugoslav HE and blank ammo.

Thanks for the information, Neil, I have the Yugoimport papers but not the earlier material.
 
From my collection
Left to right

1. JFSv HE-T
2. JPZSv API-T
3. JNhSv TP-T
4. JNhSv TP-T (from reworked HE-T)
5. JNh TP
6. VYDRA II (Experimental)
7. 30 Ṧk Dummy
8. Dummy or Tool cartridge, i don't know
9. Yugoslavian Dummy

That's quite a collection! Do you have any more info about the VYDRA II? I have one of those, but have never seen it described.
 
This HE-T has SCHULE PATRONE etc stencilled in red. 30x210.
Is this a proper Czech marking for an inert round?
 

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Thanks for the information, Neil, I have the Yugoimport papers but not the earlier material.

I found a poor scan of the manual online. It was in a sorry state of affairs and text wasn't copyable, so I put it through an object character recognition (OCR) program. I cleaned the pages of scanning artefacts, straightened all the pages, made sure the text was OCR'ed correctly, and the images detailed correctly.

It's one of two books, with the one with the cannon ammunition being the second book that covers artillery and one artillery rocket (128 mm). The second book first details first principles of the design and operation of artillery ammunition, then details specific Yugoslav ammunition from 20 mm up to 203 mm. The first book in the series covers Yugoslav infantry ammunition: small arms; rifle grenades; hand grenades; demolition charges; mortars; and recoilless rifles. I haven't OCR'ed that as well and as such might have to redo it at some point.
 
Hi,
Joe's round has a proper designation 30-JAU-PLDvK 53 but 30 JAu is also used in texts as rigby wrote.
it was used for testing the automatic function of the AA guns vz.53 and 53/59.
Mean pressure of gases 2950 to 3250 kp/cm2
Rate of fire 395-460 rds/min
Round weight 0,780 kg
Powder charge 0,235 kg
Powder - Nc tp 2,4x0,95/2,6 - KP (Nitrocellulose tube powder)

The powder charge was too big to fit in the case so a paper "projectile" was added and is filled to the top with powder.
There is a variant with brown paper "projectile".
Picture description:
1-steel case
2-primer screw Z1
3-cartridge paper P ČSN 502710
4-Insert gray cardbboard ČSN 503104
5- powder charge

Dangerous distance max 100 m from the muzzle.

The gun had to be fitted with a special muzzle device with a nozzle to function properly.

Bob




 

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This HE-T has SCHULE PATRONE etc stencilled in red. 30x210.
Is this a proper Czech marking for an inert round?


No this is not original czech marking.
Czech markings consists of a red triangle on the projectile. As No.7 in Tony's post.
Bob
 
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So is the round in the original post (the blank) a 30-MM X 210 or 30-MM X 211? or does it matter?

Joe
 
Some cutaway models....
 

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So is the round in the original post (the blank) a 30-MM X 210 or 30-MM X 211? or does it matter?

Joe

The cartridge case length on the blueprint is given as 211 (-0,5). The tolerance in the manufacture is therefore between 210,5 and 211 mm. The crimping may also deform the length a bit.

The designation of a cartridge by calibre and length of case is quite new to the Czech nomenclature.
In the Czechoslovak Army there were only 3 types of 30 mm rounds (not counting post WW2 use of German stuff).
Their designation was given by the weapon it was used with:
30x211 - 30-JFSv-PldvK 53/59
30x156B - 30-JOFZ-NR
30x165 - 30-JPSv-K 2A42 (or 30-BR-GŠ for the aircraft guns)

The Czech Army did not use the soviet naval 30x210B and the Soviets did not use the Czech 30x211.

I have seen both variations 30x210 and 30x211 for the Czech cartridge. I personaly tend to use 211.

Bob


I have seen both variations 30x210 and 30x211 for the Czech cartridge. I personaly tend to use 211.

Bob
 

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Bob, I agree with you on the cartridge length, according to the drawings it is certain what is written there. In the "New" way, the expression of the designation of the cartridge, i.e. caliber x length and an addition to the border, groove, etc., is a purely foreign designation in the regulations, nor was it used in ordinary military communication in the army at that time.
When I try to approach the development of the marking of weapons / ammunition, at least two marking systems were used simultaneously.
1) Military.
In the translation, the post-war designation of weapons and ammunition was the original designation, including the pattern, and a new addition was written at the end for distinction, i.e. S -Soviet Union, N-Germany, B-Britain, U-USA.
Note the use of millimeters and not centimeters in the notation.
Example:
-37mm PLK vz.39 S
-30mm Kulomet 108 N
-105mm Kanon vz.18 N
-122 mm Houfnice vz.38 S
-20mm OTČSv vz.38 N
etc.

Unlike the German system of trophy weapons and ammunition for 2 SV, the letters are capitalized and not in brackets ..
We are talking about marking according to Czechoslovak military customs.

After the war, until the first half of the 1960s, the marking of ammunition was, let's say, established since the pre-war period. with that excursion about trophy weapons introduced in the Czechoslovakia ... But then came the era of standardization with the Soviet system. And there were changes in the designation of abbreviations, especially artillery ammunition.
Another change in the labeling of the ammunition came about as Bob writes Write the designation of the weapon in the abbreviation after the designation of the cartridge..
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------
Then we have factory labeling and that was not the same as military labeling. Some factory markings were never used in the military, and the same applies vice versa. Then we have the cover designation of some object that was in the army and in the manufacturing sector.
Akon
 
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