Prussian casting marks on mortar bombs

[Bellifortis]

Hallo,
this forum is normally not the one where I would expect an answer to my question, but, it is the only one I know. May be members like @nachtwuenscher know somebody who knows. I have asked our district archivar last year, but got no answer up till now.
More than 20 years ago a collegue had 2 prussian mortar bombs that most probably were fired in Okt. 1813 at the battle of Wachau and Connewitz where the Allies (Prussia, Russia and Austria) fought against Napoleon. These 10 pounder (prussian stoneweight system) cast-iron spherical bombs had the letter H impressed a few cm below the fusehole. Nobody knew what the meaning of this letter H is. Some time ago I found in a german archive a "Feuerwerker Manual" with handwritten notes added. This is prussian handwriting (altdeutsche Schrift) of around 1850. Attached you find the lower part of this handwritten page. I am able to decipher a little. The 4 lines, near the bottom read : Cast at the royal Berlin guncastingfactory I and II . Spandau guncastingfactory - and 2- . ............Danzig D and a horizontal D. ..........Sterkrade 8Gutehoffnungshuette) H and a horizontal H.
Is there anybody here who is able to decipher the full text or who knows somebody who is able to ? What are the 2 captions above the casting-marks ? By the way, Gutehoffnungshuette is at the root of german industrialization in the Ruhrgebiet.
Regards,
Bellifortis.

 

[Alpini]

this forum is normally not the one where I would expect an answer to my question

Hum, why not? I guess several members here are much interested in old prussian ammunition.

What are the 2 captions above the casting-marks ?
Regards,
Bellifortis.

I am pretty sure it reads "Granaten | Schrapnells". The same markings are explained better readable also in other volumes of the Kriegsfeuerwerkerei in printed letters. I am pretty sure the 10 pounder mortar bomb of your friend is not from a 1813-15 battlefield. Such markings are common on later mortar bombs (1850 - 1890's) and also lead coated shells and the markings are explained in the books 1850's and later but not 1818 and 1835 if I remember right. But there are also lead coated shells with manufacturer marks not explained in this small table.

Adding a (sorry but really bad) picture of a prussian 50-pr Mortar bomb (28 cm / 57 kg) with a "H" and a picture of a prussian 9 cm shell with a "=" marking. Now we have a discrepancy because the "=" isn't on a shrapnel

 

[Bellifortis]

Thank you for your answer @Alpini. Your foto is only the 3rd that I see with an H. The Gutehoffnungshütte factory started up before 1800. Do you have any idea when this type of marking started ?

 

[Bellifortis]

Hum, why not? I guess several members here are much interested in old prussian ammunition.



I am pretty sure it reads "Granaten | Schrapnells". The same markings are explained better readable also in other volumes of the Kriegsfeuerwerkerei in printed letters. I am pretty sure the 10 pounder mortar bomb of your friend is not from a 1813-15 battlefield. Such markings are common on later mortar bombs (1850 - 1890's) and also lead coated shells and the markings are explained in the books 1850's and later but not 1818 and 1835 if I remember right. But there are also lead coated shells with manufacturer marks not explained in this small table.

Adding a (sorry but really bad) picture of a prussian 50-pr Mortar bomb (28 cm / 57 kg) with a "H" and a picture of a prussian 9 cm shell with a "=" marking. Now we have a discrepancy because the "=" isn't on a shrapnel

I just went through the 1851 Wilhelm Busch edition and the 1860 edition of the "Kriegsfeuerwerkerei", but I did not find any mentioning of those casting marks. The above posted handwritten list is the only one I have ever seen. And, by the way, you are the only one here that I know , that may be able to answer my questions, also there shure are some more members interested in prussian artillery matters.

 

[Alpini]

Found it in the 1862 edition. In the 1872 edition interestingly "H" is the "Hannoversche Guß- und Walzwerk" and I am pretty sure that the mortar bombs were still produced at this time. So that's the worst case when the factories behind the abreviations changed and there are no year-stamps on the shells. The lists in the books only cover the prussian factories. Bavaria and Saxony had own factories. For Saxony most raw cast shells came from the "Vormals Gräflich Einsiedelsche Werke" which had factories in Lauchhammer, Gröditz and Riesa. Later it became the "Lauchhammer AG". The steel works in Riesa are existing until today and now belong to Feralpi. The steel works in Gröditz are now part of the Schmiedewerke Gröditz. The main part in Lauchhammer did not survive the german reunification. The raw cast shells (Geschosskerne) in Saxony were all machined in Dresden. For Bavaria I don't know exactly but the Hauptlaboratorium Ingolstadt should have played a major role in production there.

 

[Bellifortis]

Hallo @Alpini,
thank you for informative answer. From 1862 I only have the "Kriegsfeuerwerkerei für gezogene Geschütze". Is there after the 1860 edition another new edition of the "normal" Kriegsfeuerwerkerei manual ? After 1860 I only have the 1872, very much enlarged, volume. This already concerns nearly exclusively rifled ammunition. And, by the way, there is absolutely no reason for the person who found these items near Wachau-Connewitz to ly about the place of discovery. The person I know is absolutely trustworthy. But, we now have already narrowed down the most probable manufacturing date between 1810 and 1865. After 1865 already rifled ammunition was in use, especially in the smaller calibers. At the battle of the "Düppeler Schanzen"/DK it was the rifled prussian artillery that made the large difference in deadly effectiveness. Now I have to find out since when this casting-mark was used at "Gutehoffnungshütte". The factory started off before 1800. Are you able to decipher a little more of the handwriting above the casting-mark list into roman letters ?
Regards,
Bellifortis.

 

[nachtwuenscher]

Just my two cents far from being such an expert but sometimes remembering stuff I've seen somewhere:
Following this link (https://www.kanonen-kugeln.de/handgranaten-mörserbomben-haubitzgranaten-hohlkugeln/) and scrolling down to a Prussian 10pounder you will find a caption reading Halberghütte/Saar for a 18th century specimen...

 

[Bellifortis]

Hallo @nachtwuenscher,
thank you for that good link. There are some really interesting specimens pictured there. But, these people are no Feuerwerker, so there are some mistakes in many captions. Myself I did not know for many, many years what to call a prussian 10 pounder hollow cast iron spherical shell. Because in 19th century literature both names "Granate" and "Bombe" are used. Only recently I read in one of the prussian manuals that those with "Henkeln" are only used in mortars and are called "Bomben" and those for "Haubitzen" are called "Granaten". The "Haubitzen" ammunition was mostly ready assembled as a full shot and loaded as that, while in a mortar still loose powder was first put in and then the "Bombe" lowered down with the help of special tongs. Thats why they needed the "Henkeln". The other thing, the 10pounder cast at Halberghütte/Saar. When you look exactly at the shape of the H, you see that it is a very different style of H, more old style type. The "Gutehoffnungshütte" H is straight similar to a modern letter H, like you can see in @Alpinis and my pictured documents.
Regards,
Bellifortis.

 

[Alpini]

There are some really interesting specimens pictured there. But, these people are no Feuerwerker, so there are some mistakes in many captions. Myself I did not know for many, many years what to call a prussian 10 pounder hollow cast iron spherical shell. Because in 19th century literature both names "Granate" and "Bombe" are used. Only recently I read in one of the prussian manuals that those with "Henkeln" are only used in mortars and are called "Bomben" and those for "Haubitzen" are called "Granaten". The "Haubitzen" ammunition was mostly ready assembled as a full shot and loaded as that, while in a mortar still loose powder was first put in and then the "Bombe" lowered down with the help of special tongs. Thats why they needed the "Henkeln".

Full agreement! And I also found a lot of failures on this page. Also meassurements are very inaccurate. And I wonder what's the source of his H=Halberghütte. Without a source given such an information is useless. Some of his pictures are really interesting but everything written sounds very unprofessional.

Btw. the Gutehoffnungshütte stamped "GH" on WW1 shells, I also found it in WW1 factory listings.

I not wanted to call your friend a liar, you wrote it was "probably" found there. And even if it was found there the battlefields near Leipzig are large and without many objects and mortar shells in a field battle don't make much sense. Also I have never seen any cannon balls from there/this time with markings. On the other hand I know that practise firings with mortars / cannons were carried out not only on firing ranges but also in the normal landscape especially in Saxony because it's where I come from. So nobody can ever be sure that it is a battlefield object for sure. I have seen several examples with markings explained in the Kriegsfeuerwerkerei books and all of them are period 1850's and later mortar shells and lead jacket shells. A picture of your friends bomb would be nice to see of course. Your picture with the handwritten text can be "translated" but the resolution is really small and it's not a good quality handwriting. I did read a lot of handwritten archive documents during the last months and most were much better readable.

 

[ron3350]

Just my two cents far from being such an expert but sometimes remembering stuff I've seen somewhere:
Following this link (https://www.kanonen-kugeln.de/handgranaten-mörserbomben-haubitzgranaten-hohlkugeln/) and scrolling down to a Prussian 10pounder you will find a caption reading Halberghütte/Saar for a 18th century specimen...

Thank you for showing this site on cannon balls.
I liked the tips on restoration and rust removal. Ron.

 

[nachtwuenscher]

I'm fully d'accord. Just wanted to add the pictures shown on the site as a nice resource. Any further information cannot be trusted if there is no original documentation given as source. Unfortunately, it is not easy to access these original documents from my cosy chair and that's why appreciate your (esp @Alpinis) efforts and firm background on even small manufacturers.

 

[Bellifortis]

Full agreement! And I also found a lot of failures on this page. Also meassurements are very inaccurate. And I wonder what's the source of his H=Halberghütte. Without a source given such an information is useless. Some of his pictures are really interesting but everything written sounds very unprofessional.

Btw. the Gutehoffnungshütte stamped "GH" on WW1 shells, I also found it in WW1 factory listings.

I not wanted to call your friend a liar, you wrote it was "probably" found there. And even if it was found there the battlefields near Leipzig are large and without many objects and mortar shells in a field battle don't make much sense. Also I have never seen any cannon balls from there/this time with markings. On the other hand I know that practise firings with mortars / cannons were carried out not only on firing ranges but also in the normal landscape especially in Saxony because it's where I come from. So nobody can ever be sure that it is a battlefield object for sure. I have seen several examples with markings explained in the Kriegsfeuerwerkerei books and all of them are period 1850's and later mortar shells and lead jacket shells. A picture of your friends bomb would be nice to see of course. Your picture with the handwritten text can be "translated" but the resolution is really small and it's not a good quality handwriting. I did read a lot of handwritten archive documents during the last months and most were much better readable.

Hallo Alpini,
I know that the handwriting of this 19th century "Feuerwerker" is not a nice one. That's why myself and even our district archivar (who teaches "Sütterlin") did not get any further. The problem with the reproduction of this handwritten additions is, they are written with red ink whose colour has bleached out in the last 150 or so years. The "sondengänger" who found the shell in the 90s, told me at the time, that he used old battleplans and descripitions to narrow down, on modern maps, the most probable fields where to search. Also other artifacts were found around there (shellfragments, leaden bullets, uniform buttons a.s.o.) all fitting to that battle. One thing I want to ask you. In which book and on which page did you find the castingmark list, which is the same as the handwritten one I showed ? I searched in the 1860 and 1872 "Kriegsfeuerwerkerei" and was not able to find anything. I attach a foto of the 10pounder prussian mortar bomb. The white colour of the H was added by somebody later, just to make it more visible.
Regards,
Bellifortis.