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TOW MISSILE - Stopped By A Flying Duck

apfsds

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I was sent this YouTube video by a buddy who is a retired, MARINE.

It claimed that, Polish soldiers on their, Bradley IFV, fired a TOW Missile on a range at a, Russian T55 Tank, and right before impact a duck intercepts the missile. They say the duck was obliterated =, but the tank survived. I would not have thought a duck impact would set of the TOW, but I am not an expert on TOW Missiles, obviously LOL Anyhow, pretty interesting footage.

Jason


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2bmHc23b0k
 
I would not have thought a duck impact would set of the TOW, but I am not an expert on TOW Missiles, obviously LOL


Jason,

As far as I'm aware, all models use a crush switch assembly in the nose or nose tip to trigger the initiation of the warhead/warheads once the safe and arm device/devices (SAD/SADs) have fully armed. This includes the BGM-71F TOW-2B top-attack family, though its primary target sensing system is a laser altimeter/profiler system and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) in the nose area. As such, hitting anything substantial enough to close the crush switch should initiate the warhead/warheads.

Neil
 
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Any impact that activates the fuse before the target itself will detonate an anti-tank missile - it's the rationale behind the various protective shields, boxes, deported of so many armored vehicles today . Reactive armor is an extension of this principle. The "tandem head" HEAT missile such as the Kornet were developed to overcome this issue. As a matter of fact the Austarlian in Vietnam were the ones who discovered that it was enough to deploy the wooden plate covering the frontal cover of the engine of their M113 APC to cause explosion of RPGs before the APC armor itself, neutralizing its effect.
 
As a matter of fact the Austarlian in Vietnam were the ones who discovered that it was enough to deploy the wooden plate covering the frontal cover of the engine of their M113 APC to cause explosion of RPGs before the APC armor itself, neutralizing its effect.

I have no idea where you get that quote from?

For note, most shaped charge warheads when fitted within missiles and projectiles are not at the most their optimal stand-off. This is due to limitations on their overall length, so as such they are unable to attain their maximum penetration capability. Putting something insubstantial on the target that is in front of the warhead when it strikes that is enough the trigger its fuzing (not fusing) system - such as a wooden box or even thin metal skirting plates - can improve the warhead's penetration by increasing the stand-off to the more optimal point.

Obviously, if the stand-off plate is many tens of charge/cone diameters away from the target surface, then penetration can be substantially degraded (see images), but it all depends on the design and quality of the warhead.

Western Standoff Penetration Curves.jpg9M14 (9N110) and PG-7 Standoff Penetration Curves.png

The warhead of the PG-7 can penetrate 320 mm of RHA at optimal standoff (approx. 350 mm), but at its built-in standoff (approx. 190 mm) only about 280 mm. At a 2 m standoff, it can penetrate between approximately 50-150 mm of RHA. Even 50 mm is way thicker than most APCs and 150 mm more than some tanks of the era! So sticking a bit of wood in front of the base armour of your APC, or even thin steel plate is going to do diddly-squat unless the wooden plate duds the fuze or its fuzing circuit (crushing the two conductive cones together).
 
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Sorry guys, but here are the facts:
The Australian experience in Vietnam was studied by the US army who developed and tested in Vietnam a "Bar-Armor" kit for the M113
"Built-on uparmoring kits fashioned from rods and bars designed for the M113 armored personnel carrier in such a way as to detonate a HEAT round before the full force of the jet strikes the APC body"
They were evaluated in combat operations in the Republic of Vietnam, though no combat data were obtained because the test vehicles were not fired on.

Here's the official report of the development of the "M113 Bar-armor"
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/376888.pdf

and some further material on the same:
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-us-bar-armor-experiments-on-m113-apcs-in-the-vietnam-war/

The US forces later developed the "RPG pre-det birdcage" on similar lines (used in Irak on the M113A2):
supergavin6.jpg


see also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyQP0gdzrvA

The Israelis in Lebanon had the same experience as the Australian in Vietnam, and if you look at their M113 APC, they equipped them with the Toga/Vayzata perforated steel plates mounted on an external frame around the front and sides of the vehicle, to detonate the AT projectiles about 20cm before the main armor of the M113. .
https://aw.my.games/sites/aw.my.com/files/styles/news_body_image_1/public/u183517/toga.jpg
https://66.media.tumblr.com/e10fbd80a93a7e285e66922149fc97c2/tumblr_plugxuZgS01v0uqbg_1280.jpg

toga.jpg

tumblr_plugxuZgS01v0uqbg_1280.jpg
 
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The Israelis in Lebanon had the same experience as the Australian in Vietnam, and if you look at their M113 APC, they equipped them with the Toga/Vayzata perforated steel plates mounted on an external frame around the front and sides of the vehicle, to detonate the AT projectiles about 20cm before the main armor of the M113. .
https://aw.my.games/sites/aw.my.com/files/styles/news_body_image_1/public/u183517/toga.jpg
https://66.media.tumblr.com/e10fbd80a93a7e285e66922149fc97c2/tumblr_plugxuZgS01v0uqbg_1280.jpg

You originally showed (before you edited the reply) perforated armour, which in the configuration shown, is not intended to protect the base armour against shaped charges weapons. Perforated armour arrays are primarily intended to protect the vehicle fitted with it against KE projectile attack. The armour plate used, which is normally very hard steel, works on the basis of the edge and simple resistive effects.

For the edge effect, the hole size is picked so that it is slightly smaller than the projectile, or projectile core it is intended to protect against. When a projectile meets the armour and it encounters a hole, it will strike some of the inner edge (circumference) of the hole. Depending on where it strikes the hole, it may cause the projectile to yaw and decelerate, the same but break off the tip, or even completely break it up. If yawed it will strike the base armour at a non-optimal angle, rendering it incapable of penetrating it. If it breaks up, it's not going to penetrate the base armour.

For the resistive effect, the thickness is selected such, when struck, it will retard or disrupt the projectile such that it cannot penetrate the base armour.

The fact that the armour is perforated means that its areal density (mass per unit area) is far less than using the same plate without perforations. So if you use perforated armour, you get the required protection, but at far less weight.

In the cases shown in the links above, from the size of the holes, they are intended to protect the base armour against small calibre weapons, such as 12.7 to 14.5 mm. This isn't really surprising as the base armour of the original M113 is aluminium alloy, supposedly 5083 alloy, and only capable of protecting against 7.62 mm projectiles (type not specified) and shell fragments/splinters (distance and shell size not stated). Hence the Israeli's have used the lightweight but effective perforated armour to improve the survivability of their APCs.

Ah, you updated your post with yet more stuff... This is getting quite tiresome and has nothing to do Australians putting bits of wood on the front of APCs to protect against PG-2/PG-7 projectiles. Plus you are really trying to preach about how armour works to the wrong person frankly as I have a library on the subject and used to write about it for Jane's when asked. Not that I'm an expert in the subject, but have a pretty good grounding in the subject and far better than most I've come across.

Right, bar/slat armour does not work in the way you state and the report is from 1966 and about defeating antiquated 57 and 75 mm recoilless rifle rounds, along with 2.36 and 3.5" US AT rocket launchers and it presumed the PG-82/SPG-82 Russian rocket launcher, not current main threat, the PG-7 to PG-7L RPG-7 and clone projectile. The effectiveness against the earlier projectiles fired by these weapons will depend on their fuzing, case robustness, their penetration capability and the standoff penetration curve (jet quality in other words). I'm not going to spend ages checking all this, as it's not bits of wood as you originally stated.

As to the use of current bar/slat armour, this is a type of statistical armour and in this case, it is intended to either disrupt the incoming a PG-7 series and similarly-fuzed type of projectile completely or to damage/dud its fuzing circuit. If the projectile strikes the bar/slat, the round will detonate as per usual. If the base armour is not capable of absorbing the jet after it has passed through the bar/slat, you are still screwed. Bar/slat is about 50-60% effective, hence the statistical bit. Its effectiveness goes down at an increasing angle as the PG-7-like projectile's piezoelectric nose sensor is more likely to strike a bar/slat. At a high angle of incidence, i.e. firing down or up at it, the sensor will always strike a bar/slat. The bar/slat isn't very thick, and to lower the areal density, some are not steel, but an aluminium alloy, as such, this offers even less added protection if the projectile detonates against it.

Bar/slat armour is useless against most larger shaped charge weapons, most of those that use crush switch nose sensors and those that use a wide-angle piezo sensor (PG-7R/PG-27/PG-28/PG-29 for example). It's useless against all larger Russian ATGM, such as 9M14 Malyuta (AT-3 Sagger), 9M111 Fagot (AT-4 Spigot), 9M113 Konkurs (AT-5 Spandrel), 9M116 (9M115 is the containerised missile, not the missile alone's GRAU code) Metis (AT-7 Saxhorn), 9M131 Metis-M/M1 (AT-13 Saxhorn-2), 9M133 Kornet (AT-14 Spriggan).

Other types of statistical armour include fibre nets (Tarian, etc.) which essentially strangle the nose of the PG-7 series projectile, shorting its fuzing circuit. Some nets that include very ceramic cylinders at the net nodes. These, if the node isn't struck by the fuze sensor directly, rip open/into the nose of the PG-7-series grenade, again shorting the fuzing circuit. If a node is a struck directly it is thought that the length of the node is such that it erodes the jet tip, so lessens its penetrative effect, though it may still go straight through the base armour.

I've had quite enough of this and if you want to know more, you'll have to bug someone else.
 
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Thank you everyone! TONS of great information that I had no clue of.

The engineering involved always melts my brain. LOTS of SCIENCE!

So, the moral of the story is, "THAT DUCK IS A TOW KILLER," and crushed the switch assembly! :)


Really grateful for the amazing information.

Jason
 
That is one of the most expensive ways to hunt a duck that I've ever seen!! In 1992 the ITOW ran about $12,000.00 + USD!! Dont know what that or the TOW2 and later improvements run now. One thing I do know; never fire a wire guided missile in the rain. Thanks Jason.
 
WOW! I had no idea the cost involved. I am sure they are way more then 12K now.

Jason
 
I am sure they are way more then 12K now.

Jason

The unit cost of a TOW Bunker Buster (BGM-71H), as of the FY2019 budget (I've not got round to downloading anything newer) was $54,956, and for a TOW 2B Aero (BGM-71F, well F-3 onwards for the AERO version), was $90,695.

Average unit cost, prior to this, for 171,199 missiles, was $19,483. Total spend on those 171,199 missiles was $3,335,470.
 
This video looks strange to me, I'm afraid it's fake - especially that there's not a word about this incident on Polish web sites.
 
It could be? Nothing surprises me nowadays with the quality of fake videos and photos.

Jason
 
Could be fake, could be real. Could have been in Poland, could have been somewhere else. Could have been other nation troops practising in Poland. Plus I'm not entirely sure that accidentally hitting an avian instead of the target tank would be newsworthy material anyway.

What I can say is that the screen display is very close to that of what should be displayed in the display (not setup) screen for either ITAS (Improved Target Acquisition System) or MITAS (Modified Improved Target Acquisition System).

ITAS (Improved Target Acquisition System) TAS Display Display Indicators.jpg

The full number of items that can be displayed on the screen is below.

MITAS (Modified Improved Target Acquisition System) TAS Display.jpg

The aiming reticule, however, seems to be more like that of IBAS (Improved Bradley Acquisition System) for the Bradley M2A3.

IBAS (Improved Bradley Acquisition System).png

What's seen in the display depends on the software version essentially. The IBAS reticule above from a 2003 manual, the IBAS and MITAS reticules are both from later manuals (2005 and 2009 respectively).

So do the Polish have any vehicles with ITAS or MITAS? Do the US train in Poland?
 
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WOW! Incredible knowledge and information! Thank you! I wish I could answer just one of the questions you asked. The answers to those investigative questions could narrow the truth down a lot. Grateful for the extreme insight! I have never seen a TOW Manual! Really cool being able to see those 3 pages above.

Jason
 
Could be fake, could be real. Could have been in Poland, could have been somewhere else. Could have been other nation troops practising in Poland.

Oh, its true and nobody write here about this before. Polish army have no Bradley IFVs nor TOW missiles. Standard Polish MICV is post-soviet BMP-1 + some hundred Rosomak (Wolverine) wheeled vehicles (Finnish Patria, build under license). Standard Polish ATGM is Israeli NTD Spike, build under license.
 
Spartan Soldiers from 2nd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division, with safeguards in place and safety bubbles shoot M-220 Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided missiles from Bradley Fighting Vehicles on Mielno Range, Drawsko Pomorskie Training Area, Poland
https://youtu.be/85wbtQhIRlY
 
Completly off target and thread, but my father's partner, when playing golf in Llandudno in the 1950's, managed to down a seagull, with his golfball stuck on its bottom bill. The beak, about the thickness of a reed, passed right through the ball, and the rather dead bird fell to the ground. My father had contemplated stuffing the avian, but his parther broke off the ball! Recorded in Golfing Year Book!
 
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