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  1. #1
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    Unknown 20 x 164R cartridge for ID or comment

    20200512_124454.jpg20200512_124722.jpg20200512_124554.jpg


    Greetings
    There is nothing even close in my data lists for this one.
    It is 19.8mm inside neck
    Length is 164.5mm
    Rim diameter is 39.4mm
    Some kind of high velocity experimental?
    There is no headstamp.
    Shown next to a 20x119 Madsen cartridge.
    Any insights most welcome ... thank you

  2. #2
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    Reminds me a lot of 1920s French Hotchkiss 20 mm experimental rounds. Case I know of has dimensions 20x160R39.6 so very clos to yours. My guess is this is from that series.
    Ignorance is bliss.

  3. #3
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    Yes Hoeksel thanks, i think you are right. 1920s eh ...so nearly 100 years ago .
    I have just found the same round mentioned
    20x164R x 39.6 in my experimental list
    Very pleased to have it ...

  4. #4
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    Filloux1.jpg Hi, i remember this ammo, i have the explanation somethere but i need time for remember , one XPL CTG for Heavy Hotchkiss made with obsolet & chanceled case used for try to make one AC Gun in 17 or 19 millimeter (Filloux),i have see 2 cases ten years ago, we have one topic in Aferhm Bulletin, need time for search it ... Bsrg

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Histavia21 For This Useful Post:

    charley777 (23rd May 2020), SG500 (20th May 2020)

  6. #5
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    Hi, i retrieve my paper about, old Topic in Aferhm French Bulletin (From Philip R...) in french language.
    My practice of english language is apocalyptic, but i try to Translate :

    In one old Topic in Aferhm French (P.R) wrote: we know the AC (AntiTank) 20mm A.Px (Puteaux) presented in may 1921.
    This XPL was not adopted,preference go to the 25 mm Hotchkiss in latest 1932.


    For obscur reason one specimen A.Px 1921 was conserved n Artilleria Muséum in Roma.
    Some years ago, Bill Woodin can examin it.
    The ammo 20x160r similar in profil as future 25x193r Hotchkiss, but in reality,was made from one old case from 17mm Filloux XPL Antitank(c1919).
    Perhaps one explain for rarity of this one ...


    One friend in Germany give us on extract from serious " das Gerät der Leichte Artillerie vor, in und nach dem
    Weltkrieg" from Général Alfred Muther, Berlin 1932
    Muther, old boss from Feldartillerie Abteillung & Director from Prussian War Ministry during WW1 know his suject.
    Page 356, we found reference to one MG Hotchkiss 20mm descrived :
    Cal 20mm,méchanism Machine Gun, Sockel-Lafete,cover 360°no shield .Two types of ammos = Incendiary 128g & AP 1265 g.

    Phillip end his topic with many questions :


    So what sort of MG ? One material Hotchkiss in 20 mm chalenger to the 20 mm AP.X 1921,
    or one Machine Gun Hotchkiss premium to the MG in 25mm,too extrapoled from 8 mm French model 1914 ?
    Confusing with the futurs materials 25mm or new model ?
    Strange datas similars for the ammos, perhaps one exemplar buiding, or only one barrel for test ?

    Bsrg, Dan

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    charley777 (21st May 2020), Hoeksel (22nd May 2020)

  8. #6
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    Thanks very much Dan
    Interesting indeed!

    I have in my lists a 17x209R x39.5 so presumably this the Filloux that your first post mentioned...
    So an AntiTank machine gun rather than AntiTank rifle. And your attachment calls this case a Filloux rather than a Hotchkiss.
    And as in my first post this case is actually 164 mm long.
    Excellent information ... and fascinating that this case has shown up in New Zealand.
    Lucky me ...haha
    Last edited by charley777; 21st May 2020 at 11:34 PM.

 

 

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