What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Oldest 37mm pom-pom case?

Depotman

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've been sorting out my 37mm German Pom-Pom cases and heads and found what I believe could be the oldest case - unless someone could show me an older one! It's a Navy case with the CROWN over an "M"; dated MARZ 1883 and is batch no. 4. Depotman

DSC_0165.jpgDSC_0161.jpg
 
I'll raise you 2 lot numbers ~ :xd:

Hotchkiss coiled cases can be older, so one of those will win this ---

I'll put up 1874 -
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0001 (4).jpg
    IMG_0001 (4).jpg
    44.5 KB · Views: 96
  • IMG_0001 (5).jpg
    IMG_0001 (5).jpg
    195.1 KB · Views: 68
A bit of nit-picking here :nerd: but the "pom-pom" nickname was first given to the automatic Maxim cannon which first emerged in the 1890s (not sure of the exact date). Maxim adopted the existing 37 x 94R cartridge for his new weapon. Not sure what gun this cartridge was first developed for - presumably a Hotchkiss, either a manually-loaded single-barrel gun or a hand-cranked five-barrel rotary. Can anyone clarify?
 
Morn Tony, always understood nickname pom-pom came from the Boer War by our troops when subjected to bombardment by same. As I understand it, Maxim was asked by the British Govt to develop a large calibre machine gun, so the one pound limit on explosive rounds naturally came in. Probable use was as anti-torpedo boat naval guns. After development, the Govt declined to actually buy any, so Maxim went to the open market place. And there he found Boer Govt representatives with gold from the Rand to spend. Our troops were much put out when the Boer artillerymen used their new equipments on them. Alan.
 
I also expect as earliest date 1874. These old cases are not clearly dated, that is more the issue.
 
I agree as to the use of the term Pom Pom regarding the Boer War. In which case (ouch) as the British cases were undated
and if we are talking Pom Pom's only, then we are put of luck for a date. Such a case though impossible to identify unless marked Maxim or with the letter M for same
will predate the Joining of Maxim & Nordenfelt. As maxim was working on the Maxim 1pr prior to this union. (as a comment the driving band on these are often termed
Nordenfelt style - they could in my mind just as easily have been a Maxim design.) The 1pr British band is simply a modified older Gruson 1pr band, and the latter (I think the first modern artillery driving band design) is a clever improvement on the Hotchkiss to avoid patents and the corresponding cost.
The earliest proper 37x94 case will date to (after looking at my files) circa 1874 it seems as the earliest type of standard projectile was produced at or just before that time.
The heavy 1pr (37x120) was introduced first as a rapid firing field piece for land. From what I can tell it seems only the U.S. Army
bought them. The introduction of the standard 1pr (37x94) for navel use was successful in revolving cannon or single shot gun form thereafter spawning endless varieties of projectiles.
 
The Maxim 1 pounder was first demonstrated to Albert Vickers in 1885,Albert Vickers been a shareholder in the Maxim Gun Company Ltd (1884-1888)
 
I think it is the transitional phase in the early 1890's which pre-dates the change to PATR-FABR KARLSRUHE and later to PATRONENFABRIK KARLSRUHE by the late 1890's.
If I can find the story amongst all my rubbish I will post it.
 
In Dutch archives I have found a document about navy testing with the gun in 1873 so there should have been cases as well.
 
Mellichamp Vol 1 book states German 37x94R cases with no Headstamps (1879-80?)
LORENZ * KARLSRUHE *. (1881-83)
LORENZ (date) KARLSRUHE (year) (1883-1888) Note the 1882 headstamp shown pre-dates this.

Dutch Navy adopted the 37mm early 1880's and early ammo was from Hotchkiss.
I just quote the book facts given. It seems like 1882 may be the earliest German dated rounds?
 
Last edited:
The information in the literature sometimes differs - as one can clearly see........
IMG_4553 (2).jpg
 
The letter A indicates training so this case was i German service with three reloading punches.
An early marked Maxim 1pr case and I have never heard of one could be marked Maxim like
rifle cartridges they supplied or with the letter M like this early 1pr.
 

Attachments

  • 1Pr PD Markings.jpg
    1Pr PD Markings.jpg
    119.6 KB · Views: 45
Hi, can you inform me on the meaning of the letter "A" and why it indicates training? I assumed Ausfuhrung (barrel cleaning).
 
Hi, can you inform me on the meaning of the letter "A" and why it indicates training?

The "A" means "Ausschuss" which means rejected. There are also shells stamped with the large "A". So stamped cases were used for blanks (often seen on shortened 77 mm cases). "A" stamped shells were used as practise shells.
 
Last edited:
I assumed Ausfuhrung (barrel cleaning).

I guess you mean the word "Aushilfs-" abbreviation="Aush." as seen on 88mm cases. The complete word would be Aushilfskartuschhülse. These were used to fire out shells which stuck inside the barrel.

The word "Ausführung" would be the german equivalent to "mark".
 
Top