Photo of Russian M1938 M-30 122mm gun crew loading ammo for a different gun?

[jeff w]

Ran across this photo of a Russian crew loading their M1938 M-30 122mm with short cartridge cases.
The M1938 M-30 used 122 x 284 (11 inch) cartridge cases. The case he is holding in his hand is not 11 inches.
Looks more like 122 x 159 (6 inch) for the old M1909 or M1910 122mm.
There appears to be a mix of proper length cases on the ammo box on the left, along with more short ones.
Not sure exactly what is going on here, but I certainly wouldn't want to be an infantryman out in front of these guns.


These guys have the right stuff -

 

[M8owner]

That is interesting. If you think about it, the short cases will still expand and obturate to seal the breach as well as the long cases. This would be the same as Sherman tanks on Tarawa using 75mm pack howitzer ammunition with the shorter cases.

 

[Nabob]

The howitzer was able to fire the shorter case. Czech range tables from 1946, which are basically translated soviet tables give the designation vz. 10/30 (Mark 10/30 was the modernized 1910 howitzer). Charge is designated Zh-462.
There are three types mentioned:
old not reworked
old reworked
new
It also says that cases vz.10/30 are to be used exceptionally because they are shorter and the chamber burns out more. The regular longer cases are harder to extract afterwards.
Original soviet tables from 1943 also mention this setup.(see attached pic)
These charges had their own computation tables so no danger for the troops there.

Bob

 

[jeff w]

The howitzer was able to fire the shorter case. Czech range tables from 1946, which are basically translated soviet tables give the designation vz. 10/30 (Mark 10/30 was the modernized 1910 howitzer). Charge is designated Zh-462.
There are three types mentioned:
old not reworked
old reworked
new
It also says that cases vz.10/30 are to be used exceptionally because they are shorter and the chamber burns out more. The regular longer cases are harder to extract afterwards.
Original soviet tables from 1943 also mention this setup.(see attached pic)
These charges had their own computation tables so no danger for the troops there.

Bob

Interesting!
According to Tony Williams excellent Ordnance Tables the M1910/30 cases were 122 x 261. That's only an inch shorter than the M1938s 284mm. That doesn't sound too bad.
However these short ones are clearly about 6 inches long. According to Wiki the older M1909 and M1910 122s used a 159mm (6 inch case). Couldn't find a reliable source to confirm that length though.

 

[Eggburt1969]

The 54G-463 (54-Г-463) series of cartridge cases for the 122 mm howitzer Model 1938 (M-30) are 285 mm long, so about 2.33 calibres. This from various Russian source materials I have and the current manufacturer.


As to the short case, I take it you mean the smaller ones shown in the three images below?




If so that’s the 54-G-460 (54-Г-460) cartridge case, which is about 159 mm long (1.30 calibres). These cartridge cases were originally for the 122 mm howitzer Model 1909/37 and 122 mm howitzer Model 1910/30.


This data is according to an article from the Number 6 edition of the Russian magazine Technology & Weapons from 2014 that covered 1910/30 howitzer ammunition. Their data likely comes from a 1952 Russian manual on 122 mm ammunition. This has a table in that lists the various 122 mm case details. The table from the manual is below, with the case length in millimetres in the middle column.



The 54-G-460 case can be drawn brass or steel, or formed from rolled steel strip with a solid base. The brass is lacquered whilst the steel is phosphated for protection. The case holds the 54-Zh-462 (54-Ж-462) charge system.

 

[jeff w]

Thanks Eggburt that clears it up. Tony's Ordnance Data Tables must be wrong for the M1910/30 and M1909/37. He has the length listed as 261 with a rim diameter of 144.
That should read 159 and the rim diameter is probably the same as the M1938 (137).
Wiki has the wrong lengths listed too for the M1910/30 and M1909/37 guns - they must have gotten their lengths from the Ordnance Data Tables.

 

[Eggburt1969]

Thanks Eggburt that clears it up. Tony's Ordnance Data Tables must be wrong for the M1910/30 and M1909/37. He has the length listed as 261 with a rim diameter of 144.
That should read 159 and the rim diameter must be 137 (same as the M1938) else it couldn't fit.

There's an awful lot of information on Russian weapon systems that harks back to Cold War era sources, which is commonly wrong, or at least inaccurate.

Going by a current manufacturer of the larger 54-G-463 series of cases, these are: 285 mm long; have a rim diameter of 137.2 mm; a mouth diameter of 124.37 mm; and weigh 3.15 (±0.15) kg for brass cases.