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  1. #11
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    I have a fragment of a document, describing ammunition. Here is the page with the BP projectile.
    The A with soviet designation usualy means that the projectile body is manufactured from cast steel not a model modification.
    So I think it is just a variant of BP-460A.
    Bob
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    any live or recovered ordnance shown in my posts was dealt with by trained EOD personnel

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  3. #12
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    Apparently there was a German version of this shell. I think it was experimental.
    I only have this picture of it without it's fuze, which probably could have been a kl AZ 40 Nb (Pr), like on the German 15 cm Hl shells.
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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabob View Post
    I have a fragment of a document, describing ammunition. Here is the page with the BP projectile.
    The A with soviet designation usualy means that the projectile body is manufactured from cast steel not a model modification.
    So I think it is just a variant of BP-460A.
    Bob

    Yeah, I've got that whole 1970 document (122-мм Гаубица М-30 обр. 1938 г - Руководство Службы) and the earlier 1948 version, but there's no mention of the BP-460 in either, just the BP-460A.

    As to the 'A' at the end, I've already stated this normally means a type of cast iron to which steel has been added during the production process to improved its properties. This is in reality a projectile modification, as the projectile sidewalls are normally thicker and the HE fill is less.

    As stated in a previous and related post...

    53-OF-462 (53-ОФ-462): steel-bodied 122 mm HE-frag projectile, copper alloy driving band, one and two-piece nose versions produced.
    53-OF-462A (53-ОФ-462А): the 'A' refers to 'сталистого чугуна' (stalistogo chuguna), so a steel cast iron mix, copper alloy driving band, one and two-piece nose versions produced.
    53-OF-462Zh (53-ОФ-462Ж): the 53-OF-462 with a sintered iron driving band, the Zh (Ж) means Железокерамический (zhelezokeramicheskiy), which literally means 'iron-ceramic'.
    53-O-462A (53-О-462А): the later (after 1941) designation of the OF-462A.


    See the page excerpt below. You have to read the note (1) at the bottom. This explains the name change from OF-462A to O-462A.

    Untitled.jpg


    Coincidentally, 462 and 462A also relate to a models of 122 mm howitzer. So 52-G-462 (52-Г-462) is the '122 mm Howitzer Model 1910/30', whilst the the 52-G-462A is the ''122 mm Howitzer Model 1909/37'. Though one has a similar ending, I don't think it means the '462A' models of 122 mm projectile were only developed for this particular one.

    Anyway, there are lots of examples of the 'A' being stuck at the end of a projectile's GAU/GRAU index code (designation) to denote that it is a modified version of the original steel version, and is constructed from 'steel cast iron'. Mortar bombs are another classic example of this.
    Last edited by Eggburt1969; 27th November 2020 at 10:00 AM.

  6. #14
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    I am sorry I missed Your remark on cast iron.
    The page I posted clearly shows the 3 piece ogive with a BP-460A. Could be an error, manuals are written by humans, but as long as I will not see other proof I will cosider this a variant of 460A

    As to the O and OF. Do you think it is because the explosive weight and type? So when a new type with 3,52 kg of explosive came the older with 2,62 kg was redesigned.
    Bob
    any live or recovered ordnance shown in my posts was dealt with by trained EOD personnel

  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabob View Post
    I am sorry I missed Your remark on cast iron.
    The page I posted clearly shows the 3 piece ogive with a BP-460A. Could be an error, manuals are written by humans, but as long as I will not see other proof I will consider this a variant of 460A

    As to the O and OF. Do you think it is because the explosive weight and type? So when a new type with 3,52 kg of explosive came the older with 2,62 kg was redesigned.
    Bob
    Not a problem Bob, there's sometimes lots to read and very little time to do so.

    Yes, the 1948 and 1970 122 mm Howitzer 1939 (M30) manuals both show that version. See the images below.

    53-VBP-460A HEAT Projectile - 122 mm Howitzer Model 1938 Manual (1948) - 1.jpg
    Image from the 1948 manual.

    53-VBP-460A HEAT Projectile - 122 mm Howitzer Model 1938 Manual (1970) - 1.jpg
    Image from the 1970 manual.

    However the Russian book from 1953 on 122 mm artillery ammunition shows the single piece nose section version of the projectile.

    53-BP-460A - Russian 122 mm Ammunition Manual (1953) - 1.jpg

    All that can be said is that there were likely two nose versions. Whether one was the BP-460, who knows?

    As to the 'O' (О) and OF' (ОФ) question. The 'O' in a Russian projectile's designation (GAU/GRAU idex code) is short for Oskolochno (Осколочно), so fragmentation. The 'F' is short for Oskolochno-Fugasnoy (Осколочно-Фугасной), so literally 'fragmentation high explosive'. (PS Ivan will need to check for the correct grammar, spelling, etc.)

    'O' projectiles are generally thicker-walled and carry less explosive material than 'OF' projectiles. As such an 'O' designated projectile is primarily used for fragmentation effect. This means their fuzes are normally set to air-burst (if possible) or instant impact (point detonate) and not delay (if possible).

    'OF' projectiles are generally thinner-walled and carry more explosive material than 'O' projectiles. As such an 'OF' designated projectile can be used for fragmentation or explosive effects: ground cratering, light building destruction (delayed detonation), etc.. This means their fuzes can be set to air-burst (if possible), instant impact (point detonate), or delayed action (if possible).

    Hope that answers all the questions Bob?

    Neil
    Last edited by Eggburt1969; 27th November 2020 at 09:15 PM.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by greif View Post
    Apparently there was a German version of this shell. I think it was experimental.
    I only have this picture of it without it's fuze, which probably could have been a kl AZ 40 Nb (Pr), like on the German 15 cm Hl shells.
    Hello Greif,
    Writing on this 12.2cm shell reminds me markings (same style) of incredible experimental german shells shown by US SUBS (Aberdeen).
    Perhaps written by era experts (?)

    ICE-AH-173-3.JPGICE-AH-173-9.JPGICE-jb-165-2.JPGICE-jb-165-4.JPGICE-jb-165-5.JPGICE-jb-165-10.JPGICE-SJ-1-2.JPGICE-SJ-1-4.JPGICE-SJ-1-5.JPGICE-TEU-18-2.JPGICE-TEU-18-5.jpg
    Any Live or Dug ordnance shown by me has been disposed of by EOD personnel .

  10. #17
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    Yes MinenAZ, looks like it. Same source I think. Very nice pictures, thanks for sharing.

  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggburt1969 View Post
    Hope that answers all the questions Bob? l
    I am quite familiar with the theory of ammunition design. I have suffered some education on this topic. The question is why was an OF projectile redesigned to O projectile and the same designation was used for a different one. They could keep the OF designation and use a different number for the other one. Both use the same fuzes there is difference in the explosive weight, which of course makes for better HE effect.

    Bob
    any live or recovered ordnance shown in my posts was dealt with by trained EOD personnel

  12. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabob View Post
    I am quite familiar with the theory of ammunition design. I have suffered some education on this topic. The question is why was an OF projectile redesigned to O projectile and the same designation was used for a different one. They could keep the OF designation and use a different number for the other one. Both use the same fuzes there is difference in the explosive weight, which of course makes for better HE effect.

    Bob
    All it says in the 1953 Russian manual on 122 mm ammunition is this (the 'Note 1' in that screen-shot/image I posted).

    До 1941 г. осколочные гранаты сталистого чугуна назывались осколочно-фугасными, вследствие чего гранаты, окрашенные до 1941 г., имеют индекс ОФ-462А.

    So essentially what it says in English is.

    Up to 1941 steel cast iron fragmentation projectiles were called fragmentation-high explosive, as a result of which projectiles marked up before 1941 have the index code OF-462A (ОФ-462А).

    As to why they were reclassified from high explosive fragmentation (ОФ) to just fragmentation (О), I don't known. I presume they redefined what an O and an OF projectile were at around that time?

    Neil

  13. #20
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    Thanks Neil,
    I can see from Your posts that You are well versed in the grau indexes. I was hoping You would have some "backround" information on this change.
    But I guess that in 1941 the Soviet Union had better things to do than writing up the reasoning for some ammo nerds 80 years later :-)

    Bob
    any live or recovered ordnance shown in my posts was dealt with by trained EOD personnel

 

 
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