British Ordnance Collectors Network
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
ID Shell...
- Thread starter FZG76
- Start date
charley777
Well-Known Member
Any dimensions available ?
Hello Irod7,
As you are in Romania, maybe you could help.
This shell is known in France as a 53mm HE for Romania (look at the marking on base 53mm ROUM.).
Length 150mm w/f, 175 with fuze.
What do you think ?
This is very interesting for me.
Romanian "original" ammo for the 53mm Gruson model 1887/1888 has the following dimensions:
Model 1887/80 HE shell and segmented HE shell (black powder)
Height without fuze: 143.1mm
Height with fuze:150mm
Driving band diameter:53.5mm
Driving band width: 12mm (with 3 equal and parallel grooves)
Driving hand height from bottom: 35mm
Fuzes: model 1887 and 1887 modified
Model 1915 HE shell and segmented shell (Melinite)
Height without fuze: 142mm
Height with fuze: 158(?)mm
Driving band diameter:53.5mm
Driving band width: 12mm (with 3 equal and parallel grooves)
Driving hand height from bottom: 35mm
Fuzes: model 1904 (from 75mm shells)
Shrapnel and Case shot are irrelevant to us now so I will leave these out.
There is also a "Cartridge with Md. 1915 shell with French 24/31 fuze Mle.99/908".
Unfortunately for this one I don`t have any dimensions, but from the only drawings I have with it, the driving band is typical to the Romanian one (with grooves) and the ogive radius is different (both from the 1887/88 shells and your shell) and the fuze well seems to be different also (in other words, the shell is monobloc with only the fuze adapter screwed, your shell is bi-bloc).
So I would take my initial words back and say this shell is most probably French manufacture for Romania, but of a slightly different model than what is known so far.
The 53mm Gruson guns have 24 grooves with progressive rifling. Maybe you can check if this matches your shell, FZG76?
Romanian "original" ammo for the 53mm Gruson model 1887/1888 has the following dimensions:
Model 1887/80 HE shell and segmented HE shell (black powder)
Height without fuze: 143.1mm
Height with fuze:150mm
Driving band diameter:53.5mm
Driving band width: 12mm (with 3 equal and parallel grooves)
Driving hand height from bottom: 35mm
Fuzes: model 1887 and 1887 modified
Model 1915 HE shell and segmented shell (Melinite)
Height without fuze: 142mm
Height with fuze: 158(?)mm
Driving band diameter:53.5mm
Driving band width: 12mm (with 3 equal and parallel grooves)
Driving hand height from bottom: 35mm
Fuzes: model 1904 (from 75mm shells)
Shrapnel and Case shot are irrelevant to us now so I will leave these out.
There is also a "Cartridge with Md. 1915 shell with French 24/31 fuze Mle.99/908".
Unfortunately for this one I don`t have any dimensions, but from the only drawings I have with it, the driving band is typical to the Romanian one (with grooves) and the ogive radius is different (both from the 1887/88 shells and your shell) and the fuze well seems to be different also (in other words, the shell is monobloc with only the fuze adapter screwed, your shell is bi-bloc).
So I would take my initial words back and say this shell is most probably French manufacture for Romania, but of a slightly different model than what is known so far.
The 53mm Gruson guns have 24 grooves with progressive rifling. Maybe you can check if this matches your shell, FZG76?
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Well, this is an interesting coincidence, posting an example of my work just before I got around to replying myself, because those lower two images are of my -then small- collection, circa late 2018.
First off, let me introduce myself - I am the guy who, back in 2015, made a series of illustrations for a book called "Regiunea Întărită Focșani-Nămoloasa-Galați" (The Fortified Region Focșani-Nămoloasa-Galați") Published by the Romanian Military Museum, detailing, amid other things, the turrets, guns and ammunition of the FNG front, including the 53mm Gruson guns.
Unfortunately, in a tragic twist of fate, one of the main authors of this book, Ioan Scafeș, passed away suddenly in the morning of January 1, 2021. He would have loved to see this discussion and the new data resulting from it, but sadly, he won't be here to enjoy it. He will, however, be missed by us all.
But back to the main topic of discussion. I can certify that yes, the shell you posted in the last answer is indeed a Romanian 53mm Gruson model 1887 common or segmented cast-iron shell equipped with the Model 1888 (also known as Md.1887 modified) percussion fuze.
Interestingly, when first adopted for use in fortification Fahrpanzer and disappearing turrets, the Gruson 53mm would have used only the Md.1887 common shell and the case shot, with no other ammunition available.
In the 2015 drawing I did for the book as well as the pictures from 2018 the case shot is painted red, because of a note from 1890 which suggested this be done to make it easier for crew to tell the common shell and the case shot apart in the gloom of the turrets, but further documents which came to light since then suggest this was never actually done and the case shot remained natural metal.
As for FZG76's mystery shell, I agree with both MINENAZ16 and my friend Irod7 that it's most likely a French produced shell for use in the Romanian 53mm Gruson. The fact it has a separate ogive and a different driving band I chalk to differences in manufacturing techniques, especially since this one looks to be made out of machined steel, not cast iron. Not sure about the fuze though, since I haven't seen any of that type before. It puts me in mind of a 25/38 Budin from a 80 or 90mm DeBange, but that's definitely not it...
In case you want to see what almost the "whole set" of Romanian produced ammunition for the 53mm Gruson would have looked like, according to a manual from 1930, here are a few from my collection.
Four of the cases are original and I included their markings for reference, the rest and the projectiles are 3d printed from plans and measurements of original examples, because not only am I a model maker by hobby, I also refuse to refurbish ground dug examples, because I'd rather not repaint a rusted an pitted projectile - and let me tell you, almost all of the examples found in Romania are incredibly rusted and most are live, so they get handed off to EOD for disposal.
So we have:
A) Model 1887 common cast iron shell. Black powder filling, Model 1887 percussion fuze. Painted black.
B) Model 1887 segmented shell. Black powder filling, Model 1888 (Md.1887 modified) percussion fuse - same internals but changed profile to make it easier to manipulate. Also painted black - by 1930, the bourellets of both these shells would have been natural metal, but I preferred to show the version used during WW1.
C) Model 1915 high-explosive shell, fitted with the Model 1904 percussion fuze from the Krupp 75mm Model 1904 field gun. In order to fit this fuze, the ogive was cut down by 8mm. Painted yellow, with natural steel bourrelet. Inscription as follows - M.T. ("Melinita Tasată", "Tamped Melinite) 53/87 (calibre and model). The casing is inscribed "170gr PFF ("Pulbere Fară Fum", "Smoke-Less Powder") Lot.1 29/927 (Lot.1, Arsenal receipt number 29, year 1927)
Some Md.1887 common and segmented shells were also cut down and fitted with the Md.1904 fuze. Since they would have retainded their black powder filings they would have been black and unmarked, but otherwise looked identical to the HE shell.
D) Model 1915 HE shell fitted with the French 24/31 Mle.99/08 percussion fuze. Only the black capped, 0,05s delay fuze was used. Normally this shell was delivered with a transport cap made from a cut down fuze, and the black part of the shell would have been inscribed in yellow ink "Gently take off the plug and put in a French fuze". Since I haven't found a picture or drawing of the original inscription, the shell remains unmarked. The ogive would have been inscribed in black "M.Ta. ; P.A.B" ("Melinita Topită cu amorsa", "Cast Melinite with booster"; "Pyrotechnia Armatei Bucuresti" "Army Pyrotechnic [facility] Bucharest"). The ogive is described as slighly rounder than the model 1887 shell and the filling would have been 110 grams of melinite.
E) Same as the one before it, but this shell is made out of cast steel and coloured brown. Markings in black would have been "M.Ta. ; 53/87 ; F.O. ("Fontă Otelită" - "Cast steel")
F) Model 1887/913 Shrapnel, pictured here with the Krupp 15-second time-and-percussion fuze, in effect a smaller version of the fuze present on the 75mm Shrapnel of the Krupp Md.1904 field gun. It could have also mounted a simple Model 1887/913 10-second time fuze or the 24-second "Burileanu" double effect fuze, which was also used for anti-aircraft work in the 53mm guns fitted on high-angle mounts.
G) Model 1887 case shot, tinned sheet steel, lead-antimony bullets with sawdust packing.
Finally, here are two plans from the 1890 manual depicting dimensions for the common shell and the case shot:
Also, MINENAZ16, are you willing to give me accurate measurements of your French made shell? I'd love to add a replica of it to my collection...
First off, let me introduce myself - I am the guy who, back in 2015, made a series of illustrations for a book called "Regiunea Întărită Focșani-Nămoloasa-Galați" (The Fortified Region Focșani-Nămoloasa-Galați") Published by the Romanian Military Museum, detailing, amid other things, the turrets, guns and ammunition of the FNG front, including the 53mm Gruson guns.
Unfortunately, in a tragic twist of fate, one of the main authors of this book, Ioan Scafeș, passed away suddenly in the morning of January 1, 2021. He would have loved to see this discussion and the new data resulting from it, but sadly, he won't be here to enjoy it. He will, however, be missed by us all.
But back to the main topic of discussion. I can certify that yes, the shell you posted in the last answer is indeed a Romanian 53mm Gruson model 1887 common or segmented cast-iron shell equipped with the Model 1888 (also known as Md.1887 modified) percussion fuze.
Interestingly, when first adopted for use in fortification Fahrpanzer and disappearing turrets, the Gruson 53mm would have used only the Md.1887 common shell and the case shot, with no other ammunition available.
In the 2015 drawing I did for the book as well as the pictures from 2018 the case shot is painted red, because of a note from 1890 which suggested this be done to make it easier for crew to tell the common shell and the case shot apart in the gloom of the turrets, but further documents which came to light since then suggest this was never actually done and the case shot remained natural metal.
As for FZG76's mystery shell, I agree with both MINENAZ16 and my friend Irod7 that it's most likely a French produced shell for use in the Romanian 53mm Gruson. The fact it has a separate ogive and a different driving band I chalk to differences in manufacturing techniques, especially since this one looks to be made out of machined steel, not cast iron. Not sure about the fuze though, since I haven't seen any of that type before. It puts me in mind of a 25/38 Budin from a 80 or 90mm DeBange, but that's definitely not it...
In case you want to see what almost the "whole set" of Romanian produced ammunition for the 53mm Gruson would have looked like, according to a manual from 1930, here are a few from my collection.
Four of the cases are original and I included their markings for reference, the rest and the projectiles are 3d printed from plans and measurements of original examples, because not only am I a model maker by hobby, I also refuse to refurbish ground dug examples, because I'd rather not repaint a rusted an pitted projectile - and let me tell you, almost all of the examples found in Romania are incredibly rusted and most are live, so they get handed off to EOD for disposal.
So we have:
A) Model 1887 common cast iron shell. Black powder filling, Model 1887 percussion fuze. Painted black.
B) Model 1887 segmented shell. Black powder filling, Model 1888 (Md.1887 modified) percussion fuse - same internals but changed profile to make it easier to manipulate. Also painted black - by 1930, the bourellets of both these shells would have been natural metal, but I preferred to show the version used during WW1.
C) Model 1915 high-explosive shell, fitted with the Model 1904 percussion fuze from the Krupp 75mm Model 1904 field gun. In order to fit this fuze, the ogive was cut down by 8mm. Painted yellow, with natural steel bourrelet. Inscription as follows - M.T. ("Melinita Tasată", "Tamped Melinite) 53/87 (calibre and model). The casing is inscribed "170gr PFF ("Pulbere Fară Fum", "Smoke-Less Powder") Lot.1 29/927 (Lot.1, Arsenal receipt number 29, year 1927)
Some Md.1887 common and segmented shells were also cut down and fitted with the Md.1904 fuze. Since they would have retainded their black powder filings they would have been black and unmarked, but otherwise looked identical to the HE shell.
D) Model 1915 HE shell fitted with the French 24/31 Mle.99/08 percussion fuze. Only the black capped, 0,05s delay fuze was used. Normally this shell was delivered with a transport cap made from a cut down fuze, and the black part of the shell would have been inscribed in yellow ink "Gently take off the plug and put in a French fuze". Since I haven't found a picture or drawing of the original inscription, the shell remains unmarked. The ogive would have been inscribed in black "M.Ta. ; P.A.B" ("Melinita Topită cu amorsa", "Cast Melinite with booster"; "Pyrotechnia Armatei Bucuresti" "Army Pyrotechnic [facility] Bucharest"). The ogive is described as slighly rounder than the model 1887 shell and the filling would have been 110 grams of melinite.
E) Same as the one before it, but this shell is made out of cast steel and coloured brown. Markings in black would have been "M.Ta. ; 53/87 ; F.O. ("Fontă Otelită" - "Cast steel")
F) Model 1887/913 Shrapnel, pictured here with the Krupp 15-second time-and-percussion fuze, in effect a smaller version of the fuze present on the 75mm Shrapnel of the Krupp Md.1904 field gun. It could have also mounted a simple Model 1887/913 10-second time fuze or the 24-second "Burileanu" double effect fuze, which was also used for anti-aircraft work in the 53mm guns fitted on high-angle mounts.
G) Model 1887 case shot, tinned sheet steel, lead-antimony bullets with sawdust packing.
Finally, here are two plans from the 1890 manual depicting dimensions for the common shell and the case shot:
Also, MINENAZ16, are you willing to give me accurate measurements of your French made shell? I'd love to add a replica of it to my collection...
Last edited:
Brillant wingsofwrath,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Romanian ordnance is a mystery to many of us.
I only know some details because French sold equipement to Romania.
So it's very interesting that we can see in french collections french made 53mm shells for Romania and not in your country.
Did these shells actually arrive in Romania ??
For dimensions, I don't have the shell, so maybe my friends FZG76 and Doctor could help you.
I only know as described previously, length without fuze 150mm. Distance base to band : 35mm.
I assume you need size of band and length of head adapter.
Regards
I found your pictures here :
http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t9517-obus-de-75-de-rupture-mle-1910
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Romanian ordnance is a mystery to many of us.
I only know some details because French sold equipement to Romania.
So it's very interesting that we can see in french collections french made 53mm shells for Romania and not in your country.
Did these shells actually arrive in Romania ??
For dimensions, I don't have the shell, so maybe my friends FZG76 and Doctor could help you.
I only know as described previously, length without fuze 150mm. Distance base to band : 35mm.
I assume you need size of band and length of head adapter.
Regards
I found your pictures here :
http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t9517-obus-de-75-de-rupture-mle-1910
Last edited:
I would like to add that there seems to be a lot of contradicting information available about the actual length without the fuze for these shells. Sources vary quite a lot...
Your measurements: 150mm (Md.1915 shell with 24/31 Mle.1899-08 fuzes)
1890 Gruson gun manual: 150mm (Md.1887 HE shell with Md.1887/88 fuzes)
1890 Gruson gun manual: 137mm(Md.1887 HE shell with Md.1887/88 fuzes, second drawing posted by wingsofwrath)
1930 Gruson gun manual: 150mm (Md.1887HE shells / HE segmented shells with Md.1887/88 fuzes)
1930 Gruson gun manual: 142mm (Md.1915 HE shells / HE segmented shells with Md.1904 fuze)
1932 ammunition album : 143.1mm (Md.1887/88 HE shell and fragmented shell)
1932 ammunition album : 127.8mm (Md.1915 shell with Md.1904 fuze)
Your measurements: 150mm (Md.1915 shell with 24/31 Mle.1899-08 fuzes)
1890 Gruson gun manual: 150mm (Md.1887 HE shell with Md.1887/88 fuzes)
1890 Gruson gun manual: 137mm(Md.1887 HE shell with Md.1887/88 fuzes, second drawing posted by wingsofwrath)
1930 Gruson gun manual: 150mm (Md.1887HE shells / HE segmented shells with Md.1887/88 fuzes)
1930 Gruson gun manual: 142mm (Md.1915 HE shells / HE segmented shells with Md.1904 fuze)
1932 ammunition album : 143.1mm (Md.1887/88 HE shell and fragmented shell)
1932 ammunition album : 127.8mm (Md.1915 shell with Md.1904 fuze)
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
The actual name for "shrapnel" in Romanian is "șrapnel" and "șrapnelul" means "the shrapnel". The "ș" is pronounced like the English "sh" in words like "sheep" or French "ch" in words like "chapeau".
The case shot is "mitralie", or, if you want it to mean "the case shot" it's "mitralia".
It's true what Irod7 says there about the dimensions being different, but I think I found a pattern. First off, all sources state that the distance from the driving band to the bottom is 35mm and that the driving band itself is 12mm, no matter the version. That seems to be true in the French shell as well.
I think we can also trust the 1890 plan that the 1887 common shell is 150mm long, because we've measured actual examples and it fits. In the second image, I'm going to assume that "22" instead of "35" is simply a mistake on the part of whomever drew the plan, because if you put it to scale, the actual drawn shell is 150mm long without fuse and that distance turns out to be 35mm.
Secondly, we know the Md.1915 shell body should be 142mm long, because the 1930 manual specifically says that "in order to fit the Md.1904 the ogive was cut down by 8mm". Since that fits a replica fuze I made from measuring an actual example, that's obviously correct as well.
For the M.15 with French fuzes, the manual states that the ogive is "rounder" which seems to suggests they changed it's shape to fit the new fuze so it could be 150mm in lenght like the '87, but then contradicts itself slightly by saying that "externally the shell is identical to the Md.1887 except for the length without fuze", so in the end I assumed it to be 142mm like the regular M.15, because the French 24/31 Mle.99/08 is exactly the same diameter as the Md.04 fuze, 31mm.
Trying to superimpose the manual photo over my drawing in CAD gave mixed results because I was working with photographs of a photograph, so I decided to cheat and reusue the same model. The drawings from the manual make it abundantly clear the body was different, because the internal cavity is different. But, until we find an actual example...
Unfortunately, we can't put too much stock in the 1932 album when it comes to actual dimensions, because the person who made those drawings was more interested in markings and general features, so the dimensions are pretty sloppy and not only do they they contradict some established data from more credible sources, but they contradicts themselves within the same drawing. Just to exemplify, the text states this is supposed to be the M.15 shell with the Md.1904 fuze, but the fuze, as drawn, doesn't fit what the Md.1904 fuze actually looks like and it's dimensions don't make sense at all.
Finally, regarding the French shell, since it's made completely from scratch and not by converting Md.1887 tooling like the Romanian production, it's clear the manufacturers were given the 1887 plans and worked from there, hence why it's 150mm in lenght even though the fuze is much wider than the Md.1887 fuze, which means that, naturally, the ogive is different.
Interstingly, I think I already have enough information to try and model one from known dimensions and based on photographs, and, if anyone would be so kind as to give me several other dimensions, like the height and bottom diameter of the removable part of the ogive, size and depth of the cutouts, etc. I'd be eternally grateful.
EDIT: oh, and another thing. The text that Irod7 shared about the segmented shell mentions both the Md.1887/88 fuze AND the Md.1904 fuze, so the latter, would, of course, have a 142mm body as per the manual, which would of course mean that a 1.1mm difference could very well be either a manufacturing or measuring error.
The case shot is "mitralie", or, if you want it to mean "the case shot" it's "mitralia".
It's true what Irod7 says there about the dimensions being different, but I think I found a pattern. First off, all sources state that the distance from the driving band to the bottom is 35mm and that the driving band itself is 12mm, no matter the version. That seems to be true in the French shell as well.
I think we can also trust the 1890 plan that the 1887 common shell is 150mm long, because we've measured actual examples and it fits. In the second image, I'm going to assume that "22" instead of "35" is simply a mistake on the part of whomever drew the plan, because if you put it to scale, the actual drawn shell is 150mm long without fuse and that distance turns out to be 35mm.
Secondly, we know the Md.1915 shell body should be 142mm long, because the 1930 manual specifically says that "in order to fit the Md.1904 the ogive was cut down by 8mm". Since that fits a replica fuze I made from measuring an actual example, that's obviously correct as well.
For the M.15 with French fuzes, the manual states that the ogive is "rounder" which seems to suggests they changed it's shape to fit the new fuze so it could be 150mm in lenght like the '87, but then contradicts itself slightly by saying that "externally the shell is identical to the Md.1887 except for the length without fuze", so in the end I assumed it to be 142mm like the regular M.15, because the French 24/31 Mle.99/08 is exactly the same diameter as the Md.04 fuze, 31mm.
Trying to superimpose the manual photo over my drawing in CAD gave mixed results because I was working with photographs of a photograph, so I decided to cheat and reusue the same model. The drawings from the manual make it abundantly clear the body was different, because the internal cavity is different. But, until we find an actual example...
Unfortunately, we can't put too much stock in the 1932 album when it comes to actual dimensions, because the person who made those drawings was more interested in markings and general features, so the dimensions are pretty sloppy and not only do they they contradict some established data from more credible sources, but they contradicts themselves within the same drawing. Just to exemplify, the text states this is supposed to be the M.15 shell with the Md.1904 fuze, but the fuze, as drawn, doesn't fit what the Md.1904 fuze actually looks like and it's dimensions don't make sense at all.
Finally, regarding the French shell, since it's made completely from scratch and not by converting Md.1887 tooling like the Romanian production, it's clear the manufacturers were given the 1887 plans and worked from there, hence why it's 150mm in lenght even though the fuze is much wider than the Md.1887 fuze, which means that, naturally, the ogive is different.
Interstingly, I think I already have enough information to try and model one from known dimensions and based on photographs, and, if anyone would be so kind as to give me several other dimensions, like the height and bottom diameter of the removable part of the ogive, size and depth of the cutouts, etc. I'd be eternally grateful.
EDIT: oh, and another thing. The text that Irod7 shared about the segmented shell mentions both the Md.1887/88 fuze AND the Md.1904 fuze, so the latter, would, of course, have a 142mm body as per the manual, which would of course mean that a 1.1mm difference could very well be either a manufacturing or measuring error.
Last edited:
The picture below shows two very similar 5.3cm Gruson type shells. As I understand it from this and other BOCN threads, the projectile on the right is a French export to Romania. It came in a case marked "Pyrotechnia Armatei". Are the fuze and case correct for this projectile or should it have the French case marrked "53 Roum".
The projectile on the left is very similar but slightly shorter, has a ringed driving band and a different fuze pocket. Is this also a French export and what fuze would it take? TIA
The projectile on the left is very similar but slightly shorter, has a ringed driving band and a different fuze pocket. Is this also a French export and what fuze would it take? TIA
And here the markings on the shell on the right. The one on the left is unmarked.
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the pictures - the one on the right is indeed a French-Romanian Gruson fitted with the standard French 24/31 fuze (in this case Fusée Schneider Mle 1916 tracé A.) and the left one is far more interesting, because not only it has a type of rotating band I've only seen in the manual (only three grooves instead of 4), but it has a separate ogive (which makes this french produced) and it's fitted for the M.1904 fuze from the Romanian 75mm Krupp M.1904 field gun.
Here is what this fuze looks like - the drawings are from the 53mm Gruson manual and the picture is of an actual example fitted on a 75mm adaptor:
When it comes to cases, I think both can fit just fine on a Romanian made cases since we've seen plenty examples of "mix-and-match" in the field and in any case we're not sure if the french manufactured ammunition came as complete cartridges or separately and were filled and assembled in Romania.
Can I please get some heights for both shells? The left one should be 142-144mm tall and the right one 150mm without fuze.
Here is what this fuze looks like - the drawings are from the 53mm Gruson manual and the picture is of an actual example fitted on a 75mm adaptor:
When it comes to cases, I think both can fit just fine on a Romanian made cases since we've seen plenty examples of "mix-and-match" in the field and in any case we're not sure if the french manufactured ammunition came as complete cartridges or separately and were filled and assembled in Romania.
Can I please get some heights for both shells? The left one should be 142-144mm tall and the right one 150mm without fuze.
Last edited:
Many thanks for the information, absolutely great!
The measurements of the shells without fuze are, left one 148.5mm and the right one 151mm. The difference between the two looks larger but I've double checked these with a vernier caliper to make sure.