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What is this .22" initiated Device ?
- Thread starter charley777
- Start date
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo to all those Pyro-interested members,
the above discussed problem is an inetersting view of different countries traditions and pyro-politics. As I mentioned before the 6mm Flobert/15mm star pencombination have a very long tradition in germany. Attached is a foto that shows the tiny 6mm Flobert blanks, that contain no powder, only the cap-comp. Right beside you see 2 fired Vostok blanks that seem like ".22 Short" cases. In germany .22 short, as blanks, never existed. Then there are 2 unfired, very old .22 Black Powder rounds. These are not really sold any more. Since around 30 years no new blank-firing arms are licenced in Germany in Calibers that also exist as "live ammunition". At the bottom you see a standard 15mm "star". This aluboxed star contains 4,2gr of composition. The velocity developed by the combination 6mm Flobert/15mm star, is very tiny. There is nearly no gas developed by the cap comp. With glasses and wearing a jacket I would not mind being fired at from a distance of 5m. The star has not really transferred the fire and will bounce off a jacket. On the right side are 3 plastic capholders left after firing of the "UK-legal" version. The cap is a normal shotguncrtridge-cap. The little bit longer alucasing is pressed onto the plastic base and completely lifts off on firing. The shotgun cap has much more "wallop" than the 6mm Flobert. It gives a much harder "Kick". From old memory i consider it even harder than the Vostok-blank.
I have never seen the foreign military penflares here in germany. They all seem to have a much stronger "lift". The US Mk 80 Mod 0 has 0,25gr of black powder for a lifting charge but the flare is as small as the german civilian type. Just 3gr of star-comp. So this type has a higher velocity, travels higher but has a very small burning time.
Now we come to pyroplitics. The company Comet was founded in 1953 . In 1979 is was bought by german mil. company Diehl. After the reunification of germany military orders for new products broke down completely. Even ready developed new prducts were not introduced. In 2005 Comet was split up. The Fireworks buisiness was sold to the chinese Li & Fung group while the military and marine-distress buisiness was sold to british Chemring group. Already at the end of the 90s Comet was the last manufacturer left on the german market with these small signalling-pens. In the decades before there quite a few more producers. The model sold in germany (see the screw- flares in the foto) was called the "Comet 150 M". Even as late as 2002 the licensing for this model was renewed. In the middle of the 90s I noticed another model being offered in a marine supplies catalog, named "Comet 150 S"(see foto). I tried to order it, but was told that this was only for export. The flare was "clipped" onto the pen, not screwed. A short time after Chemring bought Comet they stopped making the 150 M system. The normally expensive flares went on sellout for 35 cents/piece. This production stop of the last penmanufacturer killed this system in germany. Then Chemring started to offer only the "Comet 150 S" system . In 2015 Chemring sold Comet to "Drew Defense" who again sold comet a year later to "Wescom". Meanwhile they exchanged the 6mm Flobert cap with a centerfire shotgun-cap and stopped selling spare flares, only sets for very,very dear money. This effectively stopped its use for amusement.
the above discussed problem is an inetersting view of different countries traditions and pyro-politics. As I mentioned before the 6mm Flobert/15mm star pencombination have a very long tradition in germany. Attached is a foto that shows the tiny 6mm Flobert blanks, that contain no powder, only the cap-comp. Right beside you see 2 fired Vostok blanks that seem like ".22 Short" cases. In germany .22 short, as blanks, never existed. Then there are 2 unfired, very old .22 Black Powder rounds. These are not really sold any more. Since around 30 years no new blank-firing arms are licenced in Germany in Calibers that also exist as "live ammunition". At the bottom you see a standard 15mm "star". This aluboxed star contains 4,2gr of composition. The velocity developed by the combination 6mm Flobert/15mm star, is very tiny. There is nearly no gas developed by the cap comp. With glasses and wearing a jacket I would not mind being fired at from a distance of 5m. The star has not really transferred the fire and will bounce off a jacket. On the right side are 3 plastic capholders left after firing of the "UK-legal" version. The cap is a normal shotguncrtridge-cap. The little bit longer alucasing is pressed onto the plastic base and completely lifts off on firing. The shotgun cap has much more "wallop" than the 6mm Flobert. It gives a much harder "Kick". From old memory i consider it even harder than the Vostok-blank.
I have never seen the foreign military penflares here in germany. They all seem to have a much stronger "lift". The US Mk 80 Mod 0 has 0,25gr of black powder for a lifting charge but the flare is as small as the german civilian type. Just 3gr of star-comp. So this type has a higher velocity, travels higher but has a very small burning time.
Now we come to pyroplitics. The company Comet was founded in 1953 . In 1979 is was bought by german mil. company Diehl. After the reunification of germany military orders for new products broke down completely. Even ready developed new prducts were not introduced. In 2005 Comet was split up. The Fireworks buisiness was sold to the chinese Li & Fung group while the military and marine-distress buisiness was sold to british Chemring group. Already at the end of the 90s Comet was the last manufacturer left on the german market with these small signalling-pens. In the decades before there quite a few more producers. The model sold in germany (see the screw- flares in the foto) was called the "Comet 150 M". Even as late as 2002 the licensing for this model was renewed. In the middle of the 90s I noticed another model being offered in a marine supplies catalog, named "Comet 150 S"(see foto). I tried to order it, but was told that this was only for export. The flare was "clipped" onto the pen, not screwed. A short time after Chemring bought Comet they stopped making the 150 M system. The normally expensive flares went on sellout for 35 cents/piece. This production stop of the last penmanufacturer killed this system in germany. Then Chemring started to offer only the "Comet 150 S" system . In 2015 Chemring sold Comet to "Drew Defense" who again sold comet a year later to "Wescom". Meanwhile they exchanged the 6mm Flobert cap with a centerfire shotgun-cap and stopped selling spare flares, only sets for very,very dear money. This effectively stopped its use for amusement.
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Vasco Da Gama
Well-Known Member
Just to confirm what Kiwieod stated, mini-flares were standard issue for all Royal Air Force aircrew life jackets from the 1980s until I stopped flying in 2000s. The pack in the life jacket contained 10 flares, each a single red star. If you ended up in the North Sea it was always a cold experience and the taught technique was to screw a cartridge into the pen style firing device and then replace in the loaded pen in the original slot in the hard plastic packaging with the flare standing proud. You then had far more to hold with cold, wet, gloved hands when you fired it! The last thing you need in an inflatable single man dingy is a red hot flare cartridge rolling around making holes! The radio survival beacon in your life jacket allowed the rescue helicopter to get close and then you could fire a flare to attract attention.
One clever individual decided to start a camp fire with one of these on a survival exercise, as they go about 100ft in the air the result was scattered crew mates, kindling blow away and a small fire 100ft from his shelter!
One clever individual decided to start a camp fire with one of these on a survival exercise, as they go about 100ft in the air the result was scattered crew mates, kindling blow away and a small fire 100ft from his shelter!
Same thing in the US, with the earlier military flares being fired from the pen launcher, the later ones being a form of gyrojet. The US commercial variants frequently were dual use, as flare launchers and as tear gas devices. These are also easily confused with very similar pen guns in various calibers, that fired actual small arms rounds. Here are some of my flare/teargas launchers and cartridges in the collection.
Falcon
Well-Known Member
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Thank you @US-SUBS for showing this great collection most of which I have never seen. That's the special circumstances of living in the US. Here in Germany you need a special collectors-licence. I don't know anyone who has one. Also the variety of models one can not find in europe I believe. What are the 13mm ejector and flares. Even 15mm seems to me a small flare-star. Was that ment for any special use ?
Bellifortis.
Bellifortis.
These were part of the MBA efforts to try and find a military buyer for different aspects of the Gyrojet rockets. They were eventually adopted for use with pilots as flares for use as mentioned above by Vasco. My different Gyrojet flare examples are in the last picture. Back in the early 80s we used to get them for Code H destruction (out of date). They were a lot of fun and not many made it onto the shot. There is a fantastic book on MBA and their various projects, by Mel Carpenter. Still available and well worth the money.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Where we are on the subject of small flares, I want to show you the smallest flaredischarger of the world. This has been in production in Austria since more than a 100 years. But, this is the last model on the market. All others have disappeared. This is a beautiful, goldplated toy for grown ups. The caps are 2mm Pinfire and the flarestars are 9mm. These are difficult to get meanwhile because this small blank pistol is the only one left that uses 9mm stars. The 2mm blank lifts the star to about 30 meters. I think that anybody here would be very happy if he would be presented with this beautiful piece of jewelry.
Great item Bellifortis. I have a few of these too but I notice that the aluminium flare cases swell to 10mm at least with age and the flare compound is rock hard. I tried to drill the compound out without success and they no longer fired properly due to age. Cases are too thin.
I have the pistols in chrome finish also.
I did not notice the W or R on the base for red or white? on mine.
I saw coloured paint dots on the bases. Red, green and white for the colours of the flares.
I am sure that the smallest flare cartridge is the 7mm Pinfire cartridge with a brass extension at the mouth.
Other small flares may also exist. I only have the 9mm and 12mm Pinfire flare cartridges.
I have the pistols in chrome finish also.
I did not notice the W or R on the base for red or white? on mine.
I saw coloured paint dots on the bases. Red, green and white for the colours of the flares.
I am sure that the smallest flare cartridge is the 7mm Pinfire cartridge with a brass extension at the mouth.
Other small flares may also exist. I only have the 9mm and 12mm Pinfire flare cartridges.
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Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hi @ron3350,
your old 9mm flares are collectors items by themselfes. They may be 40 years old or more. The manufacturer of these civilian pyro-amusement flares will only guarentee proper functioning for 3 years. Properly stored in a completely dry atmosphere they may be good for 20 years. The ignition side of the flares is completely open and attracts especially australian humidity. When any flares are swollen they have been deadened by humidity and can't function any more. Historically there have been 7mm flares in Germany since more than a 100 years, but these small stars are not produced any more since about 50 years. Attached is an advertisment from a 100 year old catalog.
Bellifortis.
your old 9mm flares are collectors items by themselfes. They may be 40 years old or more. The manufacturer of these civilian pyro-amusement flares will only guarentee proper functioning for 3 years. Properly stored in a completely dry atmosphere they may be good for 20 years. The ignition side of the flares is completely open and attracts especially australian humidity. When any flares are swollen they have been deadened by humidity and can't function any more. Historically there have been 7mm flares in Germany since more than a 100 years, but these small stars are not produced any more since about 50 years. Attached is an advertisment from a 100 year old catalog.
Bellifortis.
I believe the shelf life for the 16 mm Signal Kit Pyrotechnic Pistol in British army use was 10 years. I tried to fire some that were more than ten years old and none worked.
Falcon
Well-Known Member
For UK members, it is worth being aware that the items shown above are also regarded by UK law as firearms.
There was a news story about a prosecution for possession of the type shown in the left photo last month.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/byker-man-smallest-pistol-world-20700351
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Not only in the UK also in NL the 2mm Berloque is classified as a prohibited firearm. In the USA, even with a 2mm shot loaded into the 2mm cap it is classified as a toy, not a firearm, because the energy is so small that it qualifies as a toy. In Germany it also is classified a firearm, but freely sold without restrictions to anyone over 18 years of age. The same in AT. Other countries other laws.
While we are on the subject of small flare-launchers I want to show you one I mentioned above before and which I personally consider the Best of all free emergency flare-launchers in germany. The HK 19 x 36mm flare-launcher. I thinkthat the "UK legal" penflares were developed as an offshoot of the 19 x 36mm system. It was developed in the 80s as an emergency flare for german Tornado pilots but also licenced with a PTB exemption for civilian use by sportsmen as an emergency signalling apparatus. From what I heard british and US laws have great difficulties in classifying this. It is not a barreled firearm. It has no barrel. It is not an "arm", but a signal-launcher. See the attached photos. If grossly misused it can hurt somebody, but a stone also. it is not produced anymore since about 30 years and the cartridges have become very expensive collectors items.
While we are on the subject of small flare-launchers I want to show you one I mentioned above before and which I personally consider the Best of all free emergency flare-launchers in germany. The HK 19 x 36mm flare-launcher. I thinkthat the "UK legal" penflares were developed as an offshoot of the 19 x 36mm system. It was developed in the 80s as an emergency flare for german Tornado pilots but also licenced with a PTB exemption for civilian use by sportsmen as an emergency signalling apparatus. From what I heard british and US laws have great difficulties in classifying this. It is not a barreled firearm. It has no barrel. It is not an "arm", but a signal-launcher. See the attached photos. If grossly misused it can hurt somebody, but a stone also. it is not produced anymore since about 30 years and the cartridges have become very expensive collectors items.
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You don't see them often in the US, I think I see the flares more frequently than the launchers, and they are pretty hard to find.
