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120 mm case ID

Burney Davis

Burney Davis

Moderator
Premium Member
I have attached a couple of pictures of a shell case that I am trying to ID. Measurements are 122mm x 252mm x 144mm Rim and it takes a protruding adapter/primer

The case is marked 120 m/m and made by Vickers (VSM), which normally indicates that it would be made for a foreign contract (possibly Japan) as we did not normally mark cases in metric. The odd thing about this is that it has the British naval ‘N’, broad arrow and typical ‘CF’ markings, which indicate British use. I cannot find any match in the information I have and the case is not cut down.

Any information or ideas greatly appreciated.

20220415_180905.jpg20220415_180916.jpg
 
VSM is Vickers and Sons Maxim. Made in June of 1914. I believe this is one that might take the large external Primer.
 
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Thanks Tim, that ties in perfectly. The Navweapons site is a great resource, shame I didn't do a proper search on it!

And so if anyone has a WW1 4.7" HE projectile that they no longer love ...........:xd:
 
When I check my references for WW1 period shell cases with a rim diameter 143-145 mm I do not get any hit identifying this case. There are some Dutch WW1 period 12 cm navy cases (681 mm or 808 mm long for Krupp L/40 guns) that fit the rim diameter, and although "we" did buy some ammunition from the UK, there are no markings on this case that say it is Dutch used and the only UK bought cases I know of are different ones (Vickers 7,5 cm M1936 AA and Vickers 76,2 mm 13 Pdr. 9 CWT II for UK guns). I also expect it to be intended as export and used by the UK, so TimG might be onto something here. For me, this is an unknown case. Nice one, thanks for sharing!
 
And from Norman Friedman's naval weapon book.... though his 9.8 inches equals about 249mm
20220417_153259.jpg20220417_153138.jpg20220417_152713.jpg

So originally there was a fixed cartridge which was shortened to achieve seperate loading....
 
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charley777,does that book have any info on the riveted ww1 german seamine that i recently posted in the mines section
 
kiwieod said:
charley777,does that book have any info on the riveted ww1 german seamine that i recently posted in the mines section
Click to expand...

Hi Daniel ...
Having just read the entire section on German WW1 mines (a subject about which i knew nothing), i can offer no easy answer.. Very few illustrations of them. They seemed to be either hemispherical at top and bottom with a cylindrical mid section ... or similar but with a coned bottom.
And the Trademe example was basically spherical..
Will email you photos of the pages
 
thanks for the info charley,he states in the book that all ww1 german mines were thought to have hertz horns,so this one and others washed up in NZ must be either pre 1915 or a undescribed/unknown type
 
Hi D, does a standard British adapter fit the case? Interested as this fits in with my post on cases with tabbed case closure and external primers/adaptors in British use. Cheers Tig.
 
Hi Tig,

And yes, the external primer / adapter is a perfect fit. No tabs on the case though. I certainly think you can add this case to your list.

20220418_140031.jpg20220418_140041.jpg
 
I also have a case of similar rim diameter which has been puzzling me. The mouth is 126mm diameter, the length is 132mm, the rim diameter is 143mm, and the diameter just above the rim is 129mm.
The headstamp is 4'7 IN HOWR V.S.M 1914 CF
The inside of the case is blackened by firing (presumably), except for the top inch or so, possibly because of a wad of some kind? The mouth is smooth, so any cutting down was done carefully. Could it be a blank?

However, David Ibbetson in his book on British QF ammunition indicates that the 4.7" Howitzer used shortened cases from the 4.7" Coastal guns, the original case of 404mm length being shortened to 256mm, and with a diameter above the rim of 137.7mm. As such, these two cases are not interchangeable. So, two different 4.7" Howitzers, or some other explanation?35 4.7in Howr, internal tidemark.jpg
 

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from the LS 1916 handbook QF 4.7inch ''B'' guns on travelling carriages on page 35 it states' A special metal or steel cartridge case 3'' long is used with this charge to act as an obturator together with the Mark IV or V adaptors to take the percussion tube.
 
Yes it does look like the one in the earlier post which I had not read or was just tired after a busy day and forgot.
 
I took a look at the head of the case shown in the OP.
I don't think this was Japanese used. The only marking that IS present that looks like anything that the Japanese Navy would also have on their cases would be the '6/14'. In Japanese context, without a preceding 'S' to put it in the Showa era, that could then only mean 'Taisho year 14, month 6', i.e. June 1925. However... I'm pretty confident that:
1) That style of date marking is essentially a 'Japanese copy' of the British style, so in this case likely to be a coincidence (and in reality being as Hazord wrote: June 1914), and I say this especially because...
2) ...it would be a woefully late date for the IJN to have imported a British casing still. From memory, the latest date I recall having seen on a British manufactured case that was imported by Japan (or intended for such) was from 1901. It seems to me that from late 1901 onward Japanese arsenals (mainly/solely?) produced the ammo that the Japanese earlier imported from the UK. I don't have official documentation to back this up, so I'm going here by 'specimens seen'.

On a Japanese used case I WOULD expect some form of Japanese marking, either a small anchor, or some other arsenal and/or acceptance mark, and I would NOT expect a 'Cf' marking on it, nor the broad arrow. As far as my inquiries with collectors specialised in British ammo have lead me to learn, both the 'Cf' and the broad arrow would really only be present on cases that were actually USED by the British (or 'accepted for use') and hence as far as those source have informed me, should NOT be present on cases used by other nations. This matter is open for some debate still though, as elaborated on in my article about early IJN ammo, so please don't shoot the messenger if I'm saying anything that's not completely correct here. ;)
The main trouble I have in being certain about any of this, is that I keep trying to turn over stones in all areas of the world to see if there's some official documentation about such matters as the British exports to Japan, but try as I might, to no avail so far. :/
Hopefully someone can fill that void still some day.

Cheers!
O.-
 
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I have the 120x252R144 as probably export for Brazil for a 12 cm navy howitzer, but I forgot why I wrote this (sorry).
 
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