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Is this a 57mm Nordefelt Shell?

doppz92

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hello,
I just found this projectile, it's a 57mm, total length is 200mm and the driving band is 19mm. It sort of looks like a Nordefelt type shell but what puzzles me is the size of the thead for the fuze which seems to be very similar to a 22/31 French one. The only markings I can read are on the steel body, 1 and possibly 4, 17 and a letter which I think is O unless it's 0?
Any info will be much appreciated. Thank you.

IMG_6068.jpgIMG_6072.jpgIMG_6071.jpgIMG_6069.jpg
 
It looks more like a Hotchkiss to me which may explain the fuze threasds. Very nice find, now you just need a 57mm Hotchkiss case.
Hotchkiss information shows three rounded ribbs on the band so it may be an after market by some one else.
 
Now that is an incredibly interesting projectile, because it looks very similar to a French HE made for the Romanian 57mm Hotchkiss Md.88/91 from the retractable turrets installed on the Bucharest forts - the driving band, for example is identical. These guns were taken off in 1916 and used during WW1 on wheeled carriages as infantry support guns or placed in high-angle mounts as AA guns.

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of this particular projectile, but I have a drawing from a manual and plans from the 1888 manual for the common shell and segmented shell as well as the case shot.
I've also added a drawing of the turret, the whole gun on the "Burileanu" AA mount - please note that the gun barrel is upside-down compared to it's usual position in the turret, and a 57mm Md.88/91/16 infantry support gun as it appears today at the Military Museum in Bucharest.

One question about the shell - is there a joint for the top of the ogive to come off? Because the presence of wrench slots suggests that should be possible, but I can't see it in the pictures.
Also, any more context about it? Where Was it found?

1_ob FRA_1500.jpg 1_ob OG_1200.jpg 1_turela 57mmBuc_1000.jpg img_1652.jpg IMG_20170719_153420.jpg
 
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Very interesting. Never seen in France.
Dimensions could match (visible length of 24-31 1899 is 24mm so 202mm without fuze for romanian shell).
Same head screwed.
Doppz92, maybe you could try a french 24-31mm with this shell.
 
Thank guys, I didn't think I found something that scarce, always very nice when it happens. I am off on holiday at the moment, but as soon as I return I will try a French fuze to test the thread and I will keep you posted.
@ wingsofwrath: thank you very much for such detailed response! I need to clean the shell a bit, but from what I can see there's no top part to unscrew, it looks like it's one solid piece of metal, so why the wrench slots?? That's a mystery for me.
@MINENAZ16: I remeasured the shell and it's exactly 202mm long. It looks more and more Romanian to me then.
Could someone show the markings of the case? A picture of the head, if someone has it in their collection?
 
@sgdbdr No, unfortunately they aren't. The first two drawings are from the library of the National Military museum in Bucharest while the third comes from my collection.

@MINENAZ16 and @doppz92 - the 202mm lenght pretty much confirms it to my mind, because there's a phenomenon I've noticed with the French made 53mm Gruson shells that seems to be repeating - in 1915 we needed to manufacture a new HE shell for these old guns after it was decided to take them out of the forts and put them on wheeled carriages, and we chose to do it by fitting the fuze from the 75mm Md.1904 Krupp onto the body of the old black-powder filled common shells. Since the Md.88 nose fuze common to both the 53mm Gruson and the 57mm Hotchkiss is 22mm in diameter and the Md.04 fuze is 31mm, an expedient solution was just cutting down of the ogive to the new diameter, which meant that the Md.15 HE shells for both guns were a few millimetres shorter (8mm in the case of the 53mm Md.87 and 11mm in the case of the 57mm Md.88).

However, when it came to making shells from these guns in France, the French manufacturers were given the height of the original common shells, so the French produced projectiles ended up taller than the Romanian made ones.

The height of the Romanian 57mm Md.88 black-powder filled nose-fuzed common shell is 203mm without fuze as per the manual. This squares very well with a measured height of 202mm without fuze for this example. By comparison, the height of the Romanian made 57mm Md.15 HE shell is 192mm without fuze, 11mm shorter.

So, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...

I am also baffled by those wrench slots - it would make sense for them to be there if the projectile was like the drawing I posted, with a removable ogive, but it seems it's not. What does the inside look like? Also, what is the distance from the driving band to the bourellet? I want to compare that with the plans, since it should be 69-70mm.

Finally, about the cartridge case, unfortunately, nobody I know has even seen one, let alone have one in their collection and I've been looking for the last few years without success.
However, we do have blueprints for the cartridge, so I was able to 3d print a replica.
It's dimensionally identical to the British naval QF 6-pounder case (itself originally a Hotchkiss design), but cut at 231mm in height and necked down to 57mm.

1_tub 57 comparatie.jpg

When it comes to the headstamp, it helps that Romanian headstamps from about 1910 onwards were very simple and consisted of only the year and a three-letter code begining with "P.A." which stands for "Pirotechnia Armatei" the Army Pyrotechnics facility which operated in Bucharest from 1880 to 1950. We're not sure about the third letter, but the code for 1913 seems to have been "PAH" while that for 1915 was "PAL" - if one assumes these were alphabetical and changed each year, that means two letters were skipped over, so another hypothesis is that it means the origin of the metal used to make the case such as "H" being "Hirtenberger", "L" being "Lorenz", etc.
Interestingly, all cases, regardless of calibre, used the same 6mm tall markings, as can be seen from this comparison of a cartridge case from the 53mm Gruson and one for the 75mm Krupp.

WW1_bottom markings.jpg
 
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Thank guys, I didn't think I found something that scarce, always very nice when it happens. I am off on holiday at the moment, but as soon as I return I will try a French fuze to test the thread and I will keep you posted.
@ wingsofwrath: thank you very much for such detailed response! I need to clean the shell a bit, but from what I can see there's no top part to unscrew, it looks like it's one solid piece of metal, so why the wrench slots?? That's a mystery for me.
@MINENAZ16: I remeasured the shell and it's exactly 202mm long. It looks more and more Romanian to me then.
Could someone show the markings of the case? A picture of the head, if someone has it in their collection?

Hello , have you tryed the french fuze ?

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