What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

20mm to 35mm Oerlikon

Peter

Member
Hi thanks for the 20x128mm info.
has anyone got sectioned photo or pics of 20mm to 35mm Oerlikon nose and base fuzes, many thanks Peter
 
35 x 228 cartridges for the Oerlikon KDA, KDB, KDC and KDE guns

Hi Peter , here some info:

In the last year I have been able to collect a nice set of 35x228 shells for the Swiss Oerlikon KDA, KDB, KDC and KDE anti aircraft gun series. The guns are in use as towed guns, self propelled AA guns, mounted on armoured vehicles and personel carriers, and are placed on naval vessels.
Here some picturs of cartridges, the guns and some explanation about the shells:
Note that some shellcases are straight and some have a groove just below the bottleneck of the shellcase, The ones with the groove are for belt fed weapons, the ones without are fired from clips containing six cartridges.
Shellcases are always steel, painted dark green or greyish green.
Type 1:
APHEI-T , Armour Piercing High Explosive Tracer shell made by Diehl Germany
A hardened steel body with a nosecap filled with an incendiary composition. Note the intricate fuze, containing two self destruct mechanisms and 5 safety devices.
The shell is meant to explode inside the target after piercing it.
It is suitable for a wide range of targets, exept heavily armoured targets.
Type2 :
APHEI, Armour Piercing High Explosive Incendiary, Swiss design from Oerlikon, designated PSBH/H. Designed in 1962. Hardened steel body with an aluminium windshield. Suitable for light to medium armoured targets. The fuze has a self destruct device.
Type 3 :
APHEI-T, Armour Piercing High Explosive Incendiary -Tracer, Swiss design from Oerlikon, designated PLD-044. Hardened steel body with an aluminium windshield. Suitable for light to medium armoured targets. The fuze has a self destruct device. It penetrates a 15 mm thick steel plate at 1000 mtrs @30 degrees. Vo.:1041m/s.
Type 4 :
HEI , High Explosive Incendiary. Swiss design from Oerlikon, designated SSD-048. It has a mechanical base fuze BDZ357. The projectile has a hardened nose, giving it a limited capacity to pierce lightly armoured targest before exploding. Mainly meant to be used against aircraft.
Below the nose and above the explosive charge (blue) a zirconium (black) incendiary element is placed. The fuze has a self destruct device. Vo.: 1175 m/s.
Type 5 :
HEI , High Explosive Incendiary. Swiss design from Oerlikon, designated SSD-048. It has an Electric base fuze BDZ363. The projectile has a hardened nose, giving it a limited capacity to pierce lightly armoured targest before exploding. Mainly meant to be used against aircraft. Due to the electronic fuze the shell is more sensitive and has a shorter reaction time. The fuze has a self destruct device. Vo.: 1175 m/s.
Type 6 :
3,5cm Sprg B G Patr. 3,5cm High explosive shell of Swiss design. It is fuzed with the AZZ65 (impact time fuze 65) which can be seen in cutaway in Type 7. The shell is produced by Oerlikon. The fuze has a self destruct device.
Type 7 :
HEI, High explosive Incendiary shell of Swiss design and colour code. The projectile is designated MSD-042. It is fuzed with the AZZ65 (impact time fuze 65). The shell is produced by Oerlikon. The fuze has a self destruct device.
Type 8 :
HE, High Explosive shell, manufactured in Holland by EMZ (Eurometaal Zaandam). The projectile is designated MSD-042 It is fuzed with the KDZ228 impact fuze. The fuze has a self destruct device. Vo.: 1175 m/s.
Type 9 :
HE, High Explosive shell, manufactured in Holland by EMZ (Eurometaal Zaandam).The projectile is designated MSD-042. It is fuzed with the KDZ-228 impact fuze. The fuze has a self destruct device (cutaway model of type 8 ). Vo.: 1175 m/s.
Type 10 :
APDS-T Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot Tracer. Swiss design, designated TLD-038. The penetrator has a weight of 294 grams and is made of tungsten carbide. Vo:1385m/s
It penetrates a 100 mm block at 90 degr. at 1000 mtrs., or a 40 mm thick steel plate at 30 degr. from horizontal at 1000 mtrs.
Type 11 :
APDS-T Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot Tracer. German design by Rheinmetal, specially designed against the Hind helicopter. Project was cancelled at the end of the cold war. No further info available.
Type 12 :
FAPDS-T , Frangible Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot- Tracer, Same as the APDS, exept for the fact that the penetrator breaks to small pieces after penetration, fanning out in a cone shaped cloud of debris. Especially meant for anti misile use.
The 35x228 mm FAPDS-T on trials penetrated 2 steel plates, 10 and 30 mm (with 60 mm of free space between both), angle 45 and range 2000 mtrs.
Type 13 :
FPDS , Frangible Piercing Discarding Sabot, experimental. Many experiments were carried out with different shapes of windshield and/or projectile body. No further info available.
Type 14 :
APFSDS-T, Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot- Tracer. Fires a dart shape formed projectile. Rheinmetal experimental design.
The 35x228mm APFSDS-T (388g penetrator at1417m/s) is stated to penetrate 120 mm @90 degr @1000 mtrs.
Type 15 :
Break up, Live practice very short range projectile of Dutch design. It consists of a thin plastic body filled with iron powder. In the barrel it is held together, after leaving the barrel the centrifugal force rips open the body dispersing the iron powder just before the firing vehicle.
An advantage is that the weapon will function and fire on its full working pressure without the need for a large shooting range.
Type 16 :
Target practice.
Regards DJH 8)
 

Attachments

  • 35mm Oerlikon Pruttel (PrTl)-2.jpg
    35mm Oerlikon Pruttel (PrTl)-2.jpg
    98.5 KB · Views: 259
  • 35x228_apdst-_apfsdst-break_up.jpg
    35x228_apdst-_apfsdst-break_up.jpg
    93 KB · Views: 204
  • 16_different_35x228_cartridges.jpg
    16_different_35x228_cartridges.jpg
    103.6 KB · Views: 368
Last edited:
Hi, here's a couple of 35mm's either side of a 45mm CTA apfsds round.

Dave.
 

Attachments

  • 35mm and 45mm CTA.jpg
    35mm and 45mm CTA.jpg
    93.2 KB · Views: 193
20mm Oerlikon

Hi, here's a few sectioned 20mm Oerlikon rounds.

Dave.
 

Attachments

  • 20mm Oerlikon.jpg
    20mm Oerlikon.jpg
    94.4 KB · Views: 222
Very nice , I only have one cutaway model of this 20 mm Oerlikon type .
 
Thanks.

Here's a sectioned APDS projectile for the 20mm.
 

Attachments

  • 20mm apds.jpg
    20mm apds.jpg
    89.7 KB · Views: 114
A very interesting addition to the collection which I changed into a cutaway model straight away, the 35x228 HE type DM21 with the A-ZZ DM331 (Impact - Self destruct fuze German model 331). In top of the fuze, a self destruct disc is placed, as with the German 2 cm shells. An explanetory drawing about the functioning of the fuze is added.
Regards DJH
 

Attachments

  • A-ZZ DM331 fuze detail.jpg
    A-ZZ DM331 fuze detail.jpg
    84.1 KB · Views: 115
  • A-ZZ DM331 drawing.jpg
    A-ZZ DM331 drawing.jpg
    98 KB · Views: 86
  • DM21 projectile with A-ZZ DM331.jpg
    DM21 projectile with A-ZZ DM331.jpg
    97 KB · Views: 72
  • 35x228 DM 21 cartridge.jpg
    35x228 DM 21 cartridge.jpg
    100.7 KB · Views: 72
Last edited:
That APDS 20mm cut through is very nice as are all the others i hasten to add, But i do like those sabot rounds.
Regards Weasel.
 
354x22 Tubulair

The newest very interesting addition to the 35x228 cartridge collection; a 35x228 experimental Tubulair cartridge. The tubulair cartridge is a Dutch experiment,designed and tested by the former NWM factories in ‘s Hertogenbosch. I suppose the thought was to make a projectile in the shape of a knive edged pipe to reduce the friction with the air. A boat tail shaped sabot (black) is fixated to the pipe body (blue) by means of twelve nylon shear pins, enshuring the sabot is kept in place three millimeter above the edge of the sabot during storage, handling and firing.
As I have no further info about this cartridge, I suppose it functions as follows; Upon firing, the inertia sets back the pipe (blue). The base of the pipe has a tooth grip ring, which grips in the sabot, so enshuring the pipe will take over the rotation of the sabot. Four channels at 90 degrees each are drilled into the sabot, ending up in the pipe piece. I do not know if the grey charge in the four holes of the body, locked up by a cap are tracers, either small seperation charges to seperate the pipe from the sabot.
Upon impact, the projectile would have cut through the target like a high speed apple corer (Apfelbohrer). It is not known what the ballistic test results were, or why the experiment was ended.

Regards, DJH
 

Attachments

  • 35x228 tubulair cartridge.jpg
    35x228 tubulair cartridge.jpg
    95.6 KB · Views: 53
  • 35x228 tubulair experimental projectile.jpg
    35x228 tubulair experimental projectile.jpg
    98.7 KB · Views: 59
  • 35x228 tubulair tooth grip ring.JPG
    35x228 tubulair tooth grip ring.JPG
    94.2 KB · Views: 45
Last edited:
Hi Tony, do you have any drawings of these designs?

Another interesting item I was able to add to my collection is this perspex board showing all the stages of producing a 35x228 projectile and shellcase, including forging, stretching, machining and painting.
Regards, DJH
 

Attachments

  • 35x228%20trekkenset.jpg
    35x228%20trekkenset.jpg
    86.1 KB · Views: 67
Hi Tony, do you have any drawings of these designs?
Old and new tubular bullets have been discussed and illustrated in several ECRA bulletins, in issues 493, 499 and 502. Hmm, I've just remembered that the Dutch bulletins use a different numbering system from the rest of ECRA, so you may have to hunt for them! The dates for the non-Dutch bulletins were May 2006, November 2006 and February 2007.
 
I found the Feb-2007 one. The rest I cannot find as the Dutch site only started at January 2007 with publishing the ECRA bulletin on it;s forum.

Thanks anyway
Regards, DJH
 
I found the reason why the Tubular projectile does not propperly function while reading this booklet:

AFATL-TR-84-03, Historical Development Summary of Automatic Cannon Caliber Ammunition.: 20-30Millimeter
Author: Dale M Davis

Quote:

"Tubular Projectiles:
The ability of a projectile to retain its launch velocity is a directfunction of the ballistic coefficient W/CdA, where W is the weight, Cd is a drag coefficient which results from shape and finish, and A is the crosssectional area of the projectile.
For at least the past 100 years, possibly as long as we have been firing spin stabilized projectiles, someone has periodically suggested drilling a hole axially
through the projectile to "let the air through" or, in practice, reduce the aross-sectional area. Another way of looking at it, even with modern knowledge, is that if 50%of a projectile's drag is nose drag and 40% is base drag, then eliminating much of the nose and base should significantly reduce drag. Over the years, this had been tried many times. Even as late as World War II, this was tried at BRLwith the 20 mm TP M99 projectile. It never worked as expected. The reason was quite simple. No one understood supersonic aerodynamics, especially supersonic flow through tubes. The flow would choke so that the flow through the tube was subsonic, much below the projectile velocity. The resulting drag was higher than it would have been had the projectile not been drilled.
The idea was'resurrected again in the 1970's. By this time, the Armament Laboratory had a good aeroballistic range and personnel knowledgeable in supersonic aerodynamics. In the mid-1970's, we ran a series of experiments by varying diameter ratios, nose and base angles, and area ratios in convergent and divergent nozzles. We were able to specify conditions under which supersonic flow could be established and maintained through the tube.
Many people and organizations became excited with this new, technology. Many different designs were built and tested for many applications varying from
short range target practice (they could bemade light and designed to choke at will) through antiaircraft (they were light, could be fired at high velocity, and cut big deep holes) to armour piercing (high sectional density yields good penetration). Some work is still being done on tubular projectile. So far as is known, none are in inventory. Like so many technological phenomena of academic interest, it is difficult to find a real application for it."

Regards, DJH
 
Last edited:
Hi Tony, do you have any drawings of these designs?

Another interesting item I was able to add to my collection is this perspex board showing all the stages of producing a 35x228 projectile and shellcase, including forging, stretching, machining and painting.
Regards, DJH

Oh drool.............that's a really excellent set, thanks for showing it DJH.

Dave.
 
I am still looking for these 35x228 cartridges, and I am willing to pay well for them , either trade them for interesting (cutaway) ammo;

Top to bottom
1-The DM48
2- The AHEAD or KETF
3- The MSD 054 with proximity fuze

If anybody has one available , please let me know , so we can do bussines!!
Regards, DJH
 

Attachments

  • 35x228 DM41 or DM48.jpg
    35x228 DM41 or DM48.jpg
    17 KB · Views: 63
  • 35x228 AHEAD KETF.jpg
    35x228 AHEAD KETF.jpg
    10.5 KB · Views: 56
  • MSD054.jpg
    MSD054.jpg
    14.1 KB · Views: 51
Top