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  1. #1
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    Subcaliber projectiles

    I'm pretty sure the black one is a subcaliber round but can only guess the gray one. Any details appreciated on these as I have them listed as subcal mortar.

    Mortar, subcaliber training 001 (Small).jpg Mortar, subcaliber training 002 (Small).jpg Mortar, subcaliber training 004 (Small).jpg
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

  2. #2
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    The black one comes out of a subcal kit developed by the Navy for the National Guard in the 1950s. The designation is something like 3FA and there are a couple of variations. There are about 20 projectiles in the kit, along with a launch tube and adapters that allowed the tube to be mounted in the 60mm. 81mm or 4.2-inch. The kit used specially manufactured .22 blanks that are collectables by themselves (3 variations of the box). The projectile took two of the blanks, one as propellant and one as a spotting charge in the nose. The range was variable by adjusting the vents in the sleeve around the propelling cartridge.

    The second item I have seen and is a subcal, but I have no data on.
    All dug or live ordnance shown in my posts is under EOD control and has been or will be dealt with accordingly by EOD personnel

  3. #3
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    The gray one appears to be the projectile from the 25mm Practice Training Cartridge which is fired from the Mortar Training Sabots. The cartridges were developed by Dynamit-Nobel. The green paint would indicate that it is a Charge 0 Cartridge which would have a range of approximately 70 to 240m depending on elevation and a muzzle velocity of 51m/s.

    The cartridge produces a greyish-white smoke on impact.

    Are there any markings on the nose of the projectile? Is there a hole for a bore riding pin at the base of the rings that go around the circumference?

    I have some projectiles at work which I will photograph today for a better comparison.

    Red Chg 3 and Green Chg 0 Cart 25mm subcal.jpg
    any live or ground dug ordnance shown in my posts has been dealt with by qualified EOD personel

  4. #4
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    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

  5. #5
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    It seems my identification was not accurate. Your subcaliber projectile is very similar to our 25mm Practice Training Cartridge but there are some differences. I have not been able to find any information on differences between models or anything to make a positive identification of your projectile.

    DSC09079.jpgDSC09084.jpgDSC09085.jpgDSC09083.jpg

    The first photo is the four cartridges, charge 0 to charge 3. They can be identified by the colour of the projectile and the grooves, or lack of grooves around the circumference of the cartridge case base. The second and third photo show the fuze and bore riding pin. The last photo shows a projectile with the bore riding pin and one without it.
    any live or ground dug ordnance shown in my posts has been dealt with by qualified EOD personel

  6. #6
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    Ammocat

    Very interesting. Maybe mine is an earlier or later Mod. Who all uses them? Sure do wish I worked where you work.

    Rick
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

  7. #7
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    I know several different countries have different versions of subcaliber mortar training devices. I have seen a variety of different projectiles. These ones are the ones currently used by the Canadian Forces for training with the 60mm and 81mm mortar. The 25mm Practice Training Cartridges are loaded into the Mortar Training Sabot. The lugs on the cartridge case lock into the base of the sabot. The Mortar Training Sabot is loaded into the mortar in the same manner as regular ammunition. When the firing pin strikes the percussion primer, the flash passes through the axial holes and ignites the propelling charge in the projectile, while simultaneously passing through the radial ports and igniting the sabot ejection charge. The propelling charge propels the 25mm projectile from the sabot barrel. The gas pressure from the ejection charge ejects the sabot from the mortar barrel. The 25mm projectile will travel between 70 and 480m depending on charge and barrel elevation and will indicate target impact with a sound report and puff of grey-white smoke. The sabots will travel between 3 and 5m. The sabots are retrieved after firing, the spent cartridge case is removed and a new cartridges is loaded. The sabot is ready to be re-fired.

    DSC09096.jpgDSC09095.jpgDSC09094.jpg
    Photo 1 - Mortar Training Sabot base showing where cartridge lugs lock in.
    Photo 2 - Mortar Training Sabot muzzle.
    Photo 3 - The 81mm and 60mm Mortar Training Sabot and a 25mm Practice Training Cartridge.
    any live or ground dug ordnance shown in my posts has been dealt with by qualified EOD personel

  8. #8
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    Here's a picture of the subcaliber as we find them.


    Chris008.jpg
    All Items of Live Ordnance posted by me have been disposed of by EOD.

  9. #9
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    Got all three that I have together for a photo-op. The blue plastic one used a pneumatic firing system. My brother advised, he was on 81MMs in the late '60s, that he recalled the "range" was akin to a Putt-Putt Golf course. Assorted targets at ranges up to about 60yds. Basic mortaring. Before the real stuff was added to the curriculum.

    OrdHut 3 19 2011 009 (Small).jpg
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

  10. #10
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    Here are a few shots of the 3-F-8 kit, along with some of my subcal mortars. I've got a couple more, but not sure where....


    DSCN1998.jpgDSCN1999.jpgDSCN2000.jpgDSCN2001.jpgDSCN2003.jpgDSCN1997.jpg
    All dug or live ordnance shown in my posts is under EOD control and has been or will be dealt with accordingly by EOD personnel

 

 
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