FFE Certificate

**exat808** · 6th May 2010, 10:30 PM

Take the point re abuse. Not sure where we can go with it? To develop a system that could be assured to be 100% transparent where each certificate is wholly relevant to the package or article in which is contained is never going to happen. So back to the collectors and others in the civilian sector - what do you require from an FFE system and how would you translate that into a workable system?

**Darkman** · 7th August 2010, 01:11 PM

Hi Iain,

I read your nightmare story from a couple of years back with much nervousness! I am also an ordnance collector from Australia and attended Beltring for the first time this year.
WOW Amazing! I actually felt sick because of all the stuff there that I would have liked to have bought but knew I could not bring back or get through customs. I did buy a few things but more about them later.

I have had similar experiences with Australian Police and Customs after importing inert ordnance, but not as much trouble as you. I have had luck finally getting the items released in several cases, (after applying for the police permit, obtaining customs ministerial approval and being told off as a naughty boy) but have also had several nice things destroyed.

Basically the police and customs (as well as Australia Post) treat all ordnance (whether live or inert) as weapons of war and are prohibited imports. They just don't differentiate between obviously empty and inert old items or new live stuff loaded with HE. If you read the prohibited items list it even includes trench art! Talk about a nanny mentality. They have completely lost the plot. Things that were OK when I was a kid - a folding pocket knife - is on the list as a prohibited weapon. They just don't care that there are legitimate collectors of inert shells etc. When I say 'obviously empty and inert' that assumes some degree of common sense and an ability to see. The story they have told me is that they don't have the expertise to determine if something is inert or not (some things are obvious and common sense) so they sieze and section everything. Then they get army ordnance to collect it. The army doesn't really care about collectors either and I had one item (a mint WW1 fuse completely disassembled) destroyed immediately by mistake.

Now I am very much more careful when I buy stuff on the internet. Firstly I don't buy high priced stuff (you have to be prepared to lose it) and secondly I ask the seller to put a very vague (but basically truthfull) description on the customs declaration. Over the last couple of years I have had good luck with small items such as fuses arriving OK from the UK via regular airmail (x-rayed) and things such as shell cases by surface mail (usually not x-rayed.) Touch wood.

Back to Beltring this year. I bought 2 x complete WW1 18 pounder shrapnel rounds and another unfired (never filled) No. 80 fuse. I only wanted the projectiles (as these are getting very hard to obtain in Australia nowadays) but had to buy the complete shells. (Fair enough.) One projectile was unfired and these are as rare as in Oz now. The unfired projectile round and the unused fuse I bought from a friendly chap called Steve who had a lot of nice ordnance for sale. He said another Australian had been buying up a lot of ordnance and was mentioning obtaining permits. When I told him how difficult and how much trouble you had to go to he wished me luck. (I wonder how the other Aussie went wa it you?)

The 2 x 18 pndr shell cases and 3 x No. 80 fuses I just packaged up and posted to myself by surface mail. (4 separate packages as there is a 2kg limit by Royal mail for either surface mail or air mail.) Funnily enough one case and 2 fuses arrived recently by airmail! (I have had this before - you pay for surface and they are sent by airmail.) Anyway the projectiles are heavy at about 3kg each - this would have cost 54 pounds each by Parcel Force (?) at the post office. I found out later I can get cheaper for both by a private courier.

Because of the excessive postage cost I wanted to put the projectiles in my checked luggage and just not declare them but my partner did not want to take the risk. She was adamant. All bagage is x-rayed, but I could have disguised the shape a little with extra metal strips, but this would go against you if detected. I reckon there would have been a 90% chance of getting away with it, but the ramifications of getting caught with the 10% risk (something like what you have gone through Iain) didn't bear thinking about.

Anyhow, I left the projectiles with a relative at Rye in East Sussex and have now started the approval process since arriving back in Australia. I have obtained the B709B form (Application to possess a prohibited Weapon) from Victorian Police Firearms & Licensing. This I sent off on Friday (complete with photos showing they are empty and declaring them totally inert) to obtain permission to actually possess the 'dangerous' empty 18 Pnder sharapnel shell projectiles.

After obtaining permission from the cops then you send off form B710 to the Federal Customs Minister to obtain permission to actually import the dangerous weapons. Last time I did this (after import) the whole process took over 3 months before I finally got permision and had to travel down to Melbourne (110km) to pick up the fuse personally from Customs near Tullamarine airport.

But here is the bit I am nervous about - last time in the approval letter I got back from the Minister's office it stated that I should have got permission BEFORE I imported the goods. The letter implied it would be a straight-forward approval process if I had obtained permission prior to import. This is what I'm doing this time - I thought I was doing the right and responsible thing. But after reading of your troubles and how harshly you were treated by idiots with no common sense, now I am not so sure. If they ask me to obtain a FFE certificate I am stuffed.

I think I will hide my ordnance collection just in case I get a visit from the federal police and they confiscate the lot! I'm not actually sure what licence or permission you have to have to collect inert ordnance these days, but you probably have to have something going by all the rubbish they go on with. Absolutely stupid. I started collecting ordnance by picking up 50 cal and 20mm cannon shells from a WW2 aircraft gunnery range as a kid. No-one cared 2 hoots in those days.

I will post an update to tell how I get on.

Regards,
Graeme Davenport
Ballarat, Vic

**ozziammo** · 7th August 2010, 01:49 PM

Guys in Oz,

As a fellow historian who has imported inert ordnance into Australia for 25years I have watched the decline of our freedom to do so.

As of around February this year Aust. Customs & Border Security has rehashed their import policy to include what is called "Inert & Inoperability Standard"

Basically ACS.BP is requiring all projectiles above .50 cal to be sectioned by at least one quarter, this includes all fuses & primers. Primers must be removed from cart cases.
Cart cases up to .50 cal must have a 10mm hole drilled in them at least 1/3rd up from the base, all other cart cases must have a 15mm hole drilled 1/3rd up from the base. All items must be free from any dangerous residue or substance. Any other projectiles that have a void or cavity must be sectioned by at least a quarter.

Only solid shot projectiles do not have to be sectioned!

Please inquire for yourself before importing!

As historians/collectors we must bombard the Minister for Customs & Manager for Border Protection with letters of disagreeance to these draconian policies, stating common sense arguments against sectioning. Try to suggest other ways that their concerns can be satisfied:eg licensing, use of digital technology to photograph your items thoroughly before importation, membership to recognized collector organizations (similar to Firearm collecting).

There was no consultation with any of us as major stakeholders in the formulation of these policies, and none of the other large countries such as UK, Holland, USA require such barbaric measures to satisfy their security & community safety concerns.

This policy as it stands will see the end of any inert items of ordnance coming into Australia, who will cut up items for you at Beltring? Who would want to destroy history like that anyway? Who has the capacity to be able to carryout sectioning of items & what would be the extra cost?

We need to spread the word in Australian collecting circles to combat this unjust & unnecessary policy.

It scares me to to think what is next!

Good luck at Beltring.

Regards Ozzi.

**ozziammo** · 7th August 2010, 02:10 PM

There are some basic principals need to be adhered to when importing.

1) strip all components down to their smallest so that all internal surfaces can be seen without further dismantling by EOD staff. (if in doubt-slab it out), old EOD slogan, slab being PE.
2) comprehensively photograph the exact items you are being sent so that you know what & how it is being sent.
3) apply for your import permits before you import (even if you don't know exactly what you might buy overseas).
4) make sure you get some reassurance (letter) from the supplier that the items are FFE (only proof that the items were checked before being sent).
5) don't trust word of mouth, make sure you have written documentation from all parties, Police, Customs Officials & your supplier!

This is some of the stuff I have learned over the years, not that it will help much with this latest setback in Customs policy.

Ozzi.

**panther1** · 15th August 2010, 12:24 AM

Hi all

It is truly horrifying to read about the crap Customs is actually demanding, but before I flew over to England, read Beltring, this year I emailed the Federal Customs people for a clear and concise list if requirements for the import of ordnance.
here is the reply I received on the 20th May 2010.

HI Iain

Sorry for the late reply.

Large calibre ammunition is controlled under Schedule 2 of the Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations 1956. All of the pictured and listed items will require permission to import from the Minister for Home Affairs (or his delegate) through this office.

Customs and Border Protection currently require certain items of warfare to be rendered permanently inoperable before permission to import can be considered.

Ammunition that has a hollow projectile must have a 1mm hole drilled through the body of the projectile to render the item permanently inoperable.

Ammunition with a solid projectile must be inert, no drilling is required.

Casings that have not been fired must have the primer removed by drilling.

The items that must be rendered permanently inoperable must be done so before import permission can be approved and prior to the importation of the goods into Australia.

Ok this is what I received, as you can see there is no mention of quarter sectioning.

As I have a pile of ordnance in the UK I am going to start the process and see what the permit from the Minister says, if there is no mention of sectioning then I will import my ammo, if it does say anything about sectioning then it will stay in the UK until I can get a "sensible ruling, if that is possible"

Iain

**dano1917** · 15th August 2010, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by panther1

Hi
I did have a lawyer, that cost me a lot, but the prosecution had the Magistrate in their pocket from the start. It was like a bad american show. I could appeal but it would cost too much money. I have to go to court to try get my firearm license, that is going to cost a arm and a leg as it is. I wish my lawyer could get into them, but law over here still consists of gentlemen talking to each other in a civilised way, except Magistrates can insult and humiliate with impunity.
To get stuff imported into Australia I have to have an FFE for each bit ifordnance, it doesn't have to be Defence Force personnel, just a recognised expert in the field of explosives and ammunition.
I certainly learned an expensive lesson.
The reason I started this discussion I was hoping to find an expert among the people who work in UXO, aren't there a couple of guys who do that?

Iain

No offense meant, but if you were in the right even a lawyer fresh out of law school, even a public defender should have been able to rip the prosecution a new one. I guess living in the US things are easier as I have stuff sent in from overseas all the time with nary a problem. Hell, I was even paid a visit from Homeland Security on one occasion, I showed them that my stuff was INERT, put on a pot of coffee and we all had a laugh about it. I can't even fathom the trouble you Austrailians have with the ordnance game. I feel bad enough not living in Europe where I could get the stuff I get cheaper........Dano

**LCplCombat** · 15th August 2010, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by panther1

Ammunition that has a hollow projectile must have a 1mm hole drilled through the body of the projectile to render the item permanently inoperable.

Ammunition with a solid projectile must be inert, no drilling is required.

Will customs have an expert in every countries ammunition examining each round to see if the Solid Projectile, without a hole drilled in it is in fact just that, and not a round with a Hollow Projectile without a 1mm hole drilled in it.

**cliff** · 14th February 2012, 02:05 PM

Guys,

I know this is an old subject but I may have some info with regard to obtaining FEE Certs for your collection.

I'm just waiting for the OK to "publish" from the "supplier" of the info and I'll post it here. If anyone would like a "preview" for the info then please PM me. The information I have ONLY pertains to the UK collectors amongst us.

Cliff