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140mm apfsds

RO did their firing trials at either Eskmeals range of their own range at Ridsdale. The RO slave system incorporated a muzzle brake as it was considered that the potential firing loads would be too high to be absorbed by a modified Challenger without one.

Eggburt1969 - out of interest which version of the RARDE 140mm system were you involved with? The early (pre FTMA) 140mm EXP38 (used at Shoeburyness/Eskmeals I believe), the double length EXP 45 (used at Kirkcudbright) or the slave FTMA EXP52 (used at Eskmeals)?

If I remember correctly RARDE did get some EXP52 barrels made in the US by Watervliet Arsenal as well as in the UK by Royal Ordnance.
 
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Old_ROF. Going by what looks like a sea wall in the distance, it looks more likely it's Eskmeals, but it's hard to tell. It doesn't looks like any of the sea firing points at Shoeburyness though, the seawalls were far more robust in general.

I remember the EXP38 designation, but as I was only doing the instrumentation, photography and radiography, I didn't often get mixed up with the weapon designations, design, etc, I was too busy rushing around. From what I remember, the guns used in the trials were either dropping block or interupted screw breechs designs. The ammo two-peice with the rear module using a steel stub case. Barrels were either smoothly tapered with no extenal features, or machined for a fume extractor and/or a muzzlebrake/muzzle referencing system. The smooth tapered barrel was used with the interupted screw breech. On the machined version, there were no fume extractor ports, just the external machining to fit the extractor.

We did use the EXP45 a few times too... an interesting beast!

I now work for Jane's, so I can look through what records we have here on the history of the program(s). A quick scoot over the reference data (not news) gives these 140 mm programs.

140 mm Future Tank Main Armament (FTMA)
140 mm Advanced Tank Cannon (ATAC) System
Future NATO 140 mm tank gun
Israel Military Industries 140 mm smoothbore gun
Rheinmetall 140 mm smoothbore gun
RUAG Land Systems 140 mm tank gun
SSTC ARA 140 mm smoothbore tank gun Bagira
 
Sorry meant to say that the photo was taken at P&EE Eskmeals range.

From your description you worked on all three different ordnance versions, screw breech was EXP38, EXP45 was the double length system and the sliding block was the slave EXP52 system.

With regards to the Janes information; items 1,2,3 and 5 all related to the international co-operative program in some measure. AFAIK the others were seperate developments without any ties to the FTMA work. Whether the IMI system was compatible I don't know but it may have some links to the ATACs work.
 
I have a feeling that I might have posted this one already...however, its a dummy 140mm APFSDS round in the Weapons Hall at the MoD UK Defence Academy, Shrivenham. It is 1.485 metres long.

The brass case standing next to it is, I assume, the 120mm used by the guns in the Conqueror and US M103 heavy tanks. Behind the ammo you can see a 120mm tank gun and a 140mm barrel.

140mm.JPG
 
Hi Tony, its Neil G.

Yep, that's a 140 mm round on the left, the two-part charge system can be cleary seen. The rod would have only been as long as the first portion. Well slightly shorter when you counter in the nose and fin units and forward combustible charge case components. Certainly looks like a charge case for the British L1 120mm rifled tank gun, the Anglicised version of the US M58.

The 120 mm tank gun looks like the L30 and the lower 140 mm barrel from the EXP38, but don't quote me on it. OLD ROF would be a better person to ask.

2piecerounds-1.jpg

Neil
 
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This may seem like a very dull question but how is the 140mm loaded. Is there a 7ft giant who picks it up and loads it, was it in an autoloader or do the separate charges get loaded separately?
Dave.
 
Hi Dave,

The charge was in two pieces. The forward portion is the shot itself and wrapped around the tapering rear section of the sabot is propellant. The propellant itself encapsulated in a combustible charge case. Once the forward charge is loaded, the rear charge case is placed behind. The rear case is composed of a steel stub case (the base) which contains an eletrical fired igniter, an elastomeric sealing ring, then the propellant charge which is encapsulated by a combustible charge case too. The stub and ring seal the breech.

Have a look at an earlier post of mine on this thread and you'll see what I mean.

Neil
 
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Awesome new information on this round! Thanks! I just found this photo that I thought I would post.

Jason

140mmapfsdsatacthumper1_zps981ab572.jpg
 
Well I can certainly say it went with a thump when it fired! All but the EXP45 used to give our instrumentation equipment a severe battering, as the blast from it was horrendous. The projectile and charge mass are about twice that of the 120 mm tank guns, as can be guessed from the above images (thanks Jason) and other images (Tony).
 
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Thanks Jason, I assume the "small" round next to it is a 120mm?

Dave.
 
Setting at the Iowa Army Ammo Plant is a 140mm APFSDS round and a (what they said) APHE (looked to be to be just like an old 120mm AA round but bigger). In the early 80s they loaded several of them. But was dropped for the 120mm, the new contractor for the plant is American Ordnance, unfortuneately they don't have a good history of the plant. But a couple other contractors who operate the 120mm line (ATK and GD-OTS) havea couple guys who remember the 140. When I worked for GD-OTS at another plant and then did some contract work for a demil facility on the IAAP I remember talking about the 120 when the 140 was brought up. If I recall it was a pain in the ass, the DU slug they wanted was a little too hot for the crew, and it just couldn't hit the same point. The the cost besides the round there was the gun system, the 120 was already on the books and the M1 starting to roll out.

I'll call up there Monday and see if I can get some pictures of it.
 
At Ridsdale there was an old bell tower which still had the bell in it.

Rumour has it that when testing the Royal Ordnance 105mm IWS high performance tank ordnance and it was fired, it caused the bell to ring. The same thing happened when they test fired the Royal Ordnance FTMA ordnance.

It's claimed that the difference being that whilst firing the IWS caused the bell to move, firing the FTMA moved the tower!

:)
 
In the UK as the systems were demonstration / Proof of principle versions the rounds were hand loaded. However RARDE/DRA had been working with FHL Claverham to investigate an autoloader system for use with Challenger, initially for 120mm calibre but also at 140mm for FTMA. The FTMA work is described here: http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3652.html. FHL also were involved with developing automatic handling systems for the Falcon 120mm turret system on the Challenger 1 hull.
 
Old_ROF said:
In the UK as the systems were demonstration / Proof of principle versions the rounds were hand loaded. However RARDE/DRA had been working with FHL Claverham to investigate an autoloader system for use with Challenger, initially for 120mm calibre but also at 140mm for FTMA. The FTMA work is described here: http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3652.html. FHL also were involved with developing automatic handling systems for the Falcon 120mm turret system on the Challenger 1 hull.
Click to expand...

Thanks Old ROF, great information. 6 seconds to load, WOW!

Dave.
 
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