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37-mm 1 1/4 pounder Mk 3

Doug

Well-Known Member
Hi

The Canadian war Museum has a VSM 37-mm 1 1/4 pounder Mk III Gun. the provenance is clear to the CGS/HMCS Canada. Conventional references list the Canada with 1-pounder guns, nor can I find a formal reference to the 1 1/4 pounder.

Can anyone help with the ammunition used by the gun? So far, I am assuming a variation of the standard British 37-mm 1-pounder gun.

Photos attached.

Thanks

Doug
 

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Cart QF 1 1/4 PR

Drawing of the cartridge with common shell plus a couple of Vickers drawings of the ordnance.
 

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There is also

One of these at Fort Henry with a 1pdr. Now the big question is the length of the slot going into the feed. If you can measure it we will be sure what it is. The 1pdr. will be shortest, 1 1/4pr next, 1 1/2pr next and final mod to 2pr. last. If we had 1 1/4 pdrs, well better than 1 pdrs. but likely were sold used RN guns (again). Then where are all the bloody casings ! I may have had one, It was not marked 1 1/4 Pr.
 
I have never heard of this calibre before. yet another round to look for.

Is the shell the same as the 1 Pounder?
 
This may well be a 1 1/4 pr casing 37x126r

I had this a couple of years ago, before I knew what the 1 1/4 Pr was. I traded it, thinking it was a 1 1/2 pr. case. The 1 1/4 Pr. and 1 1/2Pr. cases are identical, only the projectiles are different. The 1 1/4 Pr. used the 1 Pr. projectile, the 1 1/2 Pr. uses a longer projectile - a stretched 1 Pr. projectile if you will (hopefully some one will show some). This case is early, it has the "Nordenfelt" groove around the primer pocket (you see this on 3 Pdr. cases), a carry over from the Maxim Nordenfelt designs pre Vikers Maxim. If somebody has a later small primer case with out the groove it is likely a pre WW1 1 1/2 Pr. case. The small primer cases are essentually commercial products. The drawing shows the 1 1/4 Pr. mark, but I suspect in practice this wasn't done. I have not yet heard of any. The WW1 cases are well marked and us the screw in primer assembly. By then the 1 1/4 Pr. was obsolete (1905 in British service) - Only in Canada ! The measurement of the feed block should indicate if these guns were upgraded to 1 1/2 Pr. The feed slot has to be a correct fit, if too loose the feed block will not slide over the rim if the round can move forward. The rim size matches the Hotchkiss 37x120r and would have competed with this round commercialy. The feed slot on a 1Pr will be 6 9/16s" wide 166mm, the 1 1/4Pr will be 7 3/4" 197mm (with a bit of play) The 1 1/2Pr will be another 1/2 inch or so. The 40mm 2 Pr. is a straight 1 1/2 Pr. case and has the same base size.
 

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1 1/4pr

Interesting to note the ammo drawing makes reference to HMS Swiftsure and Triumph, both these ships had strange guns in that their 6prs were not the usual ones fitted to British ships.
2pr
 
It wouldn't surprize me

if the two 1 1/4 Pr. guns over here came from one of those ships. Perhaps after the RN took them out of service we ended up with them ? If serial number records could be checked ?
 
Both ships were originally built for the Chilean Navy. However, due to fears that they would be immediately sold on to the Russians they were bought by the British Government and served with the Royal Navy. HMS Swiftsure from the Chilean specification was fitted with a Marble bath. HMS Triumph had the dubious distinction of being the first warship to be sunk with a modern torpedo (1915).

An enquiry of 'Explosion' Museum, Gosport may shed light on what became of the four Maxims that were fitted to Swiftsure before she used as a target, then broken up in 1920.

Regards

TimG.
 
1 1/4 Pdr Vickers Mk III

My notes for the Vickers sales log on the MK III says:

Factory ser no 2538A -2545 (8 total) Boat mounts
Note:These guns were orignally supplied for Chilian Battlecrusier? "Liberadao" & "Constituccion". Ships were taken over by British and govt to rename Triumph and Swiftfire. Guns were bought back by VS. see contrat 78. Later supplied to Chile on con 8052/24550

(Note on above- could not make out the word Battle ?- Not anything like a destroyer though.)

(The Vickers serials were contineuos for all makes of Maxim Pom Poms, but numbers were changed in military service.)

(There were many Mk III guns supplied to shipbuilders, Italy, Plalencia, Yarrow, Armstrong. But none of the notes mention Canada or direct sales to Britain.)
 
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As requested by Gspragge. Comparison between a 1 PR common shell and 1 1/2 PR common pointed.
 

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Thanks

As these show the feed for the 1 1/2 Pr. will be a good inch wider than the
1 1/4Pr.

So far there is;

1 1/4 Pr in Ottawa, 1 Pr. in the Citadel Quebec (shown in the Devils Paint Brush book on the Maxim) and a 1 Pr. & 1 1/4 Pr. at Fort Henry Kingston Ont.
 
Hi

The CWM also has a VSM 1-pr Serial no 2493 VSM 1905.

Doug
 

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Then you can get a good

Comparison on the feed block slot widths. They should be different.
 
Chile

Just to add a couple of points to Tim's post about Swiftsure and Triumph. There was originally some reluctance on the part of the RN to purchase these ships as they were quite different in fit to any existing RN vessels, but the politics of the time dictated purchase in 1904.

The ships were also fitted with 7mm Maxim guns and there is some evidence that these were taken into British service, at least for a time. There is another Vickers drawing of the 7mm ammunition which is titled with the British nomenclature "Cartridge, S.A, Ball, 0.276 inch, Mark I |N|, Small Arms and Machine Guns, H.M.S. Swiftsure and Triumph". In addition there is also an Inspector of Small Arms Ammunition reference number on it.

Regards
TonyE
 

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And the Triumph and Swiftsure were equipped with 14 pounder guns that used, i think, a very similar case to the 12Pr 18cwt (76.2x512R x114).
Can anyone provide further info on the 14Pr guns (if they had other uses) and especially, can anyone confirm that they used the same case as the 12Pr 18cwt?
Thanks very much, Charley
 
Here are Highland Otters 1 1/4 Pr. & 1 1/2 Pr. Mklll. The case is identical only as noted previously the 1 1/2 Pr has a longer projectile. This case has a wider base than the regular 1 Pr.

So a 1 1/4pr & 1 1/2pr will have a slightly deeper feed and a wider breech block. The 2 Pr. used the same casing base size but it is not necked and the whole thing is longer again.
 

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This was the thread I had joined to see. I am a volunteer interpreter at the Canadian War Museum and am interested in our 1 1/4 pdr gun as an early example of Canadian marine services acquisition activities. Our gun was used in CGS Canada, a Fisheries protection cruiser acquired in 1905. I have not found any evidence that the British used the gun in their service - Brassey's lists it as a VSM product but it is not included in the list of British naval ordnance in the same journal. It appears that the round is what Anthony Williams has described as a 555 gm Hotchkiss type round loaded in a 123R cartridge. This appears to be what has been shown in the Gspragge post above. The ammuntion feed slot in the weapon is 21 cm which appears to fit the image above. (Williams in his book Rapid Fire o also claims the Maxim 1 1/4 pdr used a 37x137R cartridge. If so, it must be some US variant of the weapon because such a round seems to be too long for the gun at the CWM. I get the impression that Canada ordered the ship from Vickers as a fisheries protection cruiser and let Vickers arm it as they chose within limits but I intend to see if there is any further info on this in Library and Archives Canada. If so, Vickers might have been using some available non-standard (at least to the British) ordnance. CGS Canada was purchased in 1905.

My first post,
Mark Tunnicliffe
 
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