.303" blank headstamps

[smle2009]

Hi all,
Been on walkabout again,picked up these .303" blanks,all normal rosette crimp type,I do understand that many blanks were made from "reject" ball casings,so wonderd if anyone can give any info on these headstamps,
R^L II,do I actually have a MkII black powder blank!
9 C IV
G.18.T?.I VIIZ
Cheers Tony

 

[smle2009]

No idea's?

 

[TonyE]

Blanks

Sorry, did not see this one yesterday.

The first one is interesting. Is it definitely R^L II and not R^L 11? I will reserve judgement for the moment, but it is not a Mark II BP blank.

The second one is actually "6 C II". When contractors (Eley, Kynoch, KN etc.) supplied cases to RL for loading the cases were headstamped with a number code to differentiate them from RL's own cases. The list of which number refers to which company has not been found, but it is possible to make an educated guess. 6 is believed to be Greenwood & Batley. The blank has been made from a Cordite mark II ball case. Contractors numbered 1 to 6 and 8 are known, there is no number 7.

When they supplied brass strip to RL to make cases, both the RL and the number are in the headstamp.

The last one is "G.18.F.1" badly stamped. This was Government Cartridge Factory No.1 at Blackheath in Staffs., managed by Birmingham Metals and Munitions Co. Made in 1918.

It is all in my book Tony!!

Cheers,
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Hi TonyE,
Tried my best with photo,light not good at night in here,will e-mail photo to you as well,from there you can put it in your photo & then + mag,looks quiet clear,no other markings, I have read your book several times, but I orientated the MkIV(not II) at 6o'clock then rotated it clockwise and of course it became 9 not 6,so did,nt find it in your book,now I have tried it with a MkVII 44 and of course the 44 is upside down,so I had been looking for a 9 for which there was'nt one! & the F.I, I was looking forT.I,which of course I would not have found either!!! Another learning curve for me today! You might mug me for the not a BP Blank but I've hid the box of MkIII ball really safe!!!:hahaha:
Cheers Tony

 

[smle2009]

more

And another one! Headstamped K25
W W
VI
Cheers Tony

 

[SpudGun]

And another one! Headstamped K25
W W
VI
Cheers Tony

Mk 1 Armour Piercing

 

[smle2009]

Hi spudgun,
Sorry mate,I do'nt think so! A Mk I A/P would be stamped WI, this one is a Mk VII, with a W stamped at the 9 o'clock & 3 o'clock positions
Cheers Tony

 

[SpudGun]

Hi spudgun,
Sorry mate,I do'nt think so! A Mk I A/P would be stamped WI, this one is a Mk VII, with a W stamped at the 9 o'clock & 3 o'clock positions
Cheers Tony

In the book .303 Inch by Labbett & Mead page 70 shows various headstamps used for the Mk1 A/P including:

R^L 17 VIIWZ
R16W VII
KN 18 VII W
K23 W VII W
R^L 1936 WI
K40 WI

and others.

Although it's possible I'm misreading it. Hopefully TonyE can help.

Cheers, SpudGun

 

[ydnum303]

.303" Blanks

Hi smle2009,
The "K23 W W VII" headstamp is in a style that Kynoch often used for exports & foreign contracts on various calibres. I have seen tracer with G's instead of your W's, and incendiaries with B's.
Your round was unlikely to be intended for British service as an AP; at that time there were probably fairly large stocks of AP still in storage after WW1. However, once it had been converted to blank (probably Mk.V), then it could well have been used here.
R.

 

[SpudGun]

From the book .303 Inch.....re AP....In 1917 a further .303 AP design was approved for service the Mark 7.W......Title when approved "Cartridge SA Ball .303 inch NC MARK VII.Wz", Cordite version "Cartridge SA Ball .303 inch MARK VII.W" In 1927 changed to "CARTRIDGE SA Armour Piercing .303 inch W Mark I"

So I was right and wrong (?) the headstamp shown in smle2009's picture is a Cartridge SA Ball .303 inch MARK VII.W which became known as CARTRIDGE SA Armour Piercing .303 inch W Mark I

Here's a scan from the book showing the headstamps:

 

[smle2009]

Hi spudgun,
I think you have nailed it on the head,many thanks,so if I understand correctly when this cartridge was manufactured in 1925 it was a MkVII A/P then in 1927 it would have been re-listed as a MkI A/P? Glad mines a blank! Do'nt know what I would list it as! bit like the S.M.L.E./No 1 rifle nut!
Any chance you could give me the ISBN No for the book you quoted on?
You were right!
Cheers Tony

 

[SpudGun]

Hi spudgun,
I think you have nailed it on the head,many thanks,so if I understand correctly when this cartridge was manufactured in 1925 it was a MkVII A/P then in 1927 it would have been re-listed as a MkI A/P?

Thats how I'm reading it.

I'd be happier if TonyE read it the same way

Any chance you could give me the ISBN No for the book you quoted on?

It's long out of print, I eventually found my copy on ebay. ISBN-0-9512922-0-X

 

[Andysarmoury]

Hi If you are looking for the book i have seen one for sale at,
http://www.jcmilitaria.com/default.asp
Its a bit pricy at 95
regards
Andy

 

[smle2009]

Thanks Spudgun,
Thanks Andy, think every thing is pricey on there!

 

[TonyE]

Viiw

Roger is absolutely correct to say this is the standard Kynoch export style during the 1930's and would not normally be found in British service, but the Labbett book does show this as a British issue AP round, and it is possible that this was indeed the case.

However, Peter may have just listed it because he had seen or owned the round. I have all his archives and will seeif he shows it in his notes.

Odd headstamps that did not comply with the norm were occassionally accepted. For example, before the 7.92mm incendiary B Mark I came into service, Kynoch were supplying "export" headstamped Buckingham smoke tracers for use in the BESA.

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Here we go again!

Turned this up yesterday a .303" A/P case(not a blank) with the pre 1927 headstamping,but this case is from 1938! eleven years after AP was listed as WI,the headstamp is K 38 VII.W. any reason for this chaps?
Cheers Tony

 

[TonyE]

Viiw

Again it is a typical Kynoch export or contract headstamp. They were still using the old style of identifyer wwell into the 1930s, i.e. VIIG for tracer, VIIW for A.P. and VIIB for smoke tracer/incendiary.

What I suspect happened is that they received orders from the War Office for x million rounds of blank and as reject cases are allowed in the spec, used whatever cases they had on hand as an economy measure.

Kynoch were very good at this sort of thing. I have Kynoch Blank L.Mark V mad around the turn of the century that has been made with balloon headed cases to save brass. Definitely not in the official spec!

Regards
TonyE