12.7x99mm NATO - .50 BMG Rounds

[EODGUY]

I'll throw in my two cents on the BAT cartridges. In the US they were fielded for use in the M40 sereis 106mm recoilless rifles and are designated the M48 or M48A1. I think the US was the first to field the cartridge, but I do not know for sure. The spotter tracer bullet is easy to ID externally because it will have an open tip. The bullet has a tracer element in an aluminum cup and an igniter composition in a steel cup in a gilding metal jacket. Tony, I am surprised that with all the variations the British did that they never loaded a Ball version for testing at some point. The US did at one point and then fielded, for limited use, a Practice Ball and Practice Ball Tracer. We also loaded several other standard Cal. .50 bullets for testing. My first photo from l-r is a French loading (VE 4-63 S 12,7);; A Spanish Santa Barbara loading (12.7 M48A1 SB 71);; A South African loading (61 87);; A Belgian loading (FN 12.7); Two Kynoch dummies (K66 L10A1 and K 63 L10A1);; An Israeli Dummy (Hebrew letters 1-78 .50);; A South African loading with a Ball bullet, crimped in the case. (no headstamp) This was reportedly an experimental loading for a test helicopter gun system???;;A South African loading (61 85) that has a spotter bullet, but without any color code and no signs there ever was any. Not sure if the bullet is inert or not.
The second photo l-r is a US loading (LC 54);; A US Practice Ball loading (LC 54) with an OD tip, without an open tip.;; A US Practice Ball Tracer (FA 52) wth an orange over OD tip, without an open tip.;; A US API test (FA 60) with a standard cal. .50 API bullet.;; A US loading with a standard ball loading crimped in (LC 54);; A US Practice Ball Dummy (FA 51) with a blank primer pocket, 3 case holes and OD tip.;; A US dummy (FA 59) with a drilled out primer pocket, 3 case holes and a wooden insert from the base that also forms the bullet.;; A US dummy (LC 69) with a drilled primer, 4 case holes and 4 bullet holes. It is hard to miss this as being inert.;; A US cutaway case (FAT 5) showing the primer tube.;; A US blank (LC 59).;; and a head space gauge. I've always found this to be a very interesting cartridge series.

 

[TonyE]

.50 bat

There was a great deal of experimentation with the .50 BAT round undertaken by Kynoch in the UK, but the only British round that was approved for service was the L10A1 drill round. For operational use the US made M48A1 was adopted.

Although there were inert filled British experimental rounds made, none of these saw service and I know of no use of American practice rounds in the UK.

British experimental rounds utilised both US type open nose projectiles with a primer/detonator inset or normal spitzer type with incendiary composition in the nose. There was also a case type with a screw in promer with flash tube.

Here are some British examples.

Regards
TonyE

 

[archmoco]

L11a2

Hi there,

I just recieved a 50 cal round in the post headstamped K 70 L11A2, just going through the previous posts picking up from the one posted below, I take it this round is:

Manufacturer: Kynoch, UK
Date: 1970

But are they spotting rounds? And if so are these the corrent bullets on the cartridge?

Best Regards
Michael

To expand a little on Tomsk's answer, the round was used in a ranging machine gun fitted to the Wombat, a light 120mm recoiless anti-tank weapon. The ranging gun was fitted co-axial with and matched the trajectory of the main gun. When the .50 round was fired, it traced and emitted a bright flash and puff of smoke when it hit. When that was on target the main gun was fired.

A similar system was used on the early Chieftain tanks before laser range finding was fitted, but they used a spotter proj. in the normal 99mm case. These were the L11A1, L11A2 and L13A1 rounds (picture attached of two experimental and issue L13A1 plus .50 BAT drill rounds)

details of Wombat here:
L6 Wombat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you pull your round and it is a spotter tracer, it will be a long boat tailed bullet with the base sealed with a celluloid/plastic material.

I will post a picture when I find a loose bullet to scan.

Regards
TonyE

 

[TonyE]

L11a2

The L11A1 and 2 were spotting rounds used by British main battle tamks with a trajectory matched to the main gun armament.

When the 120mm gun was introduced to service a new spotting round was introduced, the L13A1. All had a red and yellow tip.

Early trials rounds had a blue and red tip or a red and silver tip, and there were probably other colours. There was also an inert filled L11A1 with a mustard coloured tip and a pre-production L13 headstamped XL13E1 with a violet tip.

Pictures show various L11A1, L11A2 and L13 rounds.

Regards
TonyE.

 

[archmoco]

The L11A1 and 2 were spotting rounds used by British main battle tamks with a trajectory matched to the main gun armament.

When the 120mm gun was introduced to service a new spotting round was introduced, the L13A1. All had a red and yellow tip.

Early trials rounds had a blue and red tip or a red and silver tip, and there were probably other colours. There was also an inert filled L11A1 with a mustard coloured tip and a pre-production L13 headstamped XL13E1 with a violet tip.

Pictures show various L11A1, L11A2 and L13 rounds.

Regards
TonyE.

Thanks TonyE

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Xl13e1

I managed to get one of the XL13E1 rounds which I believe were the only Kynoch UK produced rounds that were ever given an experimental Headstamp !
Is that correct Tony E ?

 

[TonyE]

Experimentals

AFAIK they were certainly th only ones given an "XL..E.." style of experimental headstamp. There are a number of other headstamps that were applied only to experimental ammuniyion.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Thank you Tony E

AFAIK they were certainly th only ones given an "XL..E.." style of experimental headstamp. There are a number of other headstamps that were applied only to experimental ammuniyion.

Regards
TonyE

Many thanks for that reply Tony, the person who presented me with the round stated very clearly that it was an exceptional headstamp!
Best regards

 

[smle2009]

Round 5: As the headstamp text has been identified as Hebrew (У Л 7-71) do we know what it translates to and the manufacturer other then Israeli?

Hi,
I have always understood this this headstamp to be crylic as you say, as found on Yugoslavian rounds.
Also the K 76 .50 with empty primer you have photo'd,I have just got hold of one of these and came to me as a factory dummy?

Cheers
Tony

 

[TonyE]

K76

There could be any of several reasons for an empty round like that. It could be a factory dummy, possibly to set up the machinery, or a sample to send to a prospective military customer.

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Hi Tony,
thanks for the extra info,I just thought it was odd that the two rounds have turned up with the same date and both with empty primers.
The y n headstamp has me a bit confused because the y looks like a back to front k to me,like the k n headstamps?(now nny?)
Please,please put me straight on this one because I may have a lot of re-arranging to do!:tinysmile_cry_t4:
All the best
Tony

 

[tankhunter]

The M8C was the Semi-Auto spotting rifle used on the WOMBAT. It was Magazine fed. The CONBAT used the SAME M8c Spoting rifle mounted on top of the Barrel (Main Armament) But the loading Mech was completely different. WOMBAT had a side swinging Venturie. CONBAT had a coventional Dropping Breech Block the same as an ordanary Field Gun. BUT, had attached a Venturie & the block was brode right through to allow gas escape. The MOBAT was the Earlier version of the CONBAT & had a Bren LMG mounted on the side as a Spotting Rifle. The CONBAT was basically the same gun (MOBAT) but Modifed by doing away with the side mounted Bren & fitting the M8c .50" Short cartridge spotter. Hence therm CON-bat for CONVERTED B.A.T. (B.A.T = Battalion, Anti-Tank) The B.A.T Series of Weapons gave the Infantry a Heavy Anti-Tank Weapon Facility.
I have a small passion for these Weapons as I am fortunate enough to own a Legaly Deactivated MOBAT myself!

 

[TonyE]

I believe the decision to use a Bren in the sotting role on the MOBAT was the reason for the re-introduction of the .303 inch Tracer G Mark 8 in 1957. The G Mark 8 had been briefly introduced in 1945 as a naval requirement with a degraded 3.5 calibre bullet ogive to better match the trajectory of other .303 loads out to 600 yards, but only very limited manufacture took place before the war ended.

Radway Green recommenced manufacture in 1957 and 58, a time when most front line units would have converted to 7.62mm. Interestingly, the wartime G8 had a GM envelope but the RG made ammunition had a cupro-nickel envelope, this at a time when CN had fallen out of use as an envelope material for other types of cartridge.

As an aside I am interested to know whether .303 inch tracer was issued post war for Brens in the normal infantry role, as none was made other than the G8 described above. Does anyone know?

Regards
TonyE

 

[beihan62]

Hi smle2009,I have a fired 12.7 case I picked up in Bosnia in 1994,the headstamp is N K 1978,the N is reversed,the K is a normal capital K,hope this is of interest,
Regards Don,

 

[TonyE]

Is that a .50 Browning or a .50 Spotter case? It was made by P.D.Igman, Konjic, Bosnia.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Darrol]

Hi, I have always understood this this headstamp to be crylic as you say, as found on Yugoslavian rounds.CheersTony

Hi . Im with tony on this one .the markings are yugoslavian.RegardsDarrol.

 

[smle2009]

Morning chaps,
this is where the confusion began with me,I mistook the Hebrew y as a crylic k,both are .50" BMG rounds,the Bosnian one is interesting because of the early date,1957, of manufacture

Cheers
Tony

 

[Darrol]

Your not on your own tony . . I made the same mistake :/ Cheers .Darrol.

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

Thanks also to tankhunter for his explanation of the different versions of BAT weapons. The WOMBAT was still in UK service in 1989. See this:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/72419-120-mm-BAT-recoilless-gun?p=150316#post150316

Round 7: Sorry for my ignorance but what is .50 Spotting BAT Round and what is it used for and what does BAT stand for?

The coloured bands may have been polished off so I may get the projectile pulled and examine it further. Does anybody know how I could accurately identify a .50 BMG projectiles once the colour codes have been removed?

Im thinking from the weight, construction and the tail appearance I may be able to work something out. Has anybody got the specifications of .50 BMG projectiles and some images?