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  1. #21
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    I went back to the museum after about five years away, it was when I reviewed my photos later that I noticed that all of the tags on the sensors no longer matched, as compared to my earlier photos. Possibly during cleaning or movement they got switched. Discussion with escorts indicated that the identification even in records was less then perfect.
    All dug or live ordnance shown in my posts is under EOD control and has been or will be dealt with accordingly by EOD personnel

  2. #22
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    Aerojet General patented this in 1966- U.S. 4058061

    Quote Originally Posted by pzgr40 View Post
    Cutaway model of a US designed and manufactured BLU-43 B or BLU-44 A/B (Bomb Live Unit) “Dragontooth”, a cluster mine (also called minelet) as used extensively in the Vietnam war during operation “Igloo White” (1970) , a program to prevent infiltration of NVA and Vietcong personel into the southern part of Vietnam.
    The mine is a hydraulicly activated air dropped dispenser mine. Due to it’s shape –borrowed from nature’s earonautical design of a maple seed- it does not need a parachute, it will descend to the ground rotating on it’s wing, minimalizing the impact force.
    120 Dragontooth mines were packed in a CDU-2/B Cluster adepter, forty of which were loaded into a SUU-13/A dispenser (remains on plane, dispensing cluster adepters), meaning one dispenser holds 4800 mines to form the CBU (Cluster Bomb Unit) 28/A cluster munitions.

    Functioning of the mine:
    The mine exists of a plastic body, in which an aluminium fuze body with two radial slots is placed. A spring loaded piston with a sleeve is placed in the fuze body which is kept in upper postion by the arming piston retainer (1). The piston also acts as a sort of valve, keeping the liquid sensitizer fluid –Propylenediamine/Methanol- (B) apart from the main charge of 9 grams Nitromethane/ Nitroethane (A) by means of two O-rings. The spring loaded firing pin is kept in backward position by two balls which are kept in inward position by the release sleeve surrounding the firing pin housing (green). Connected to this sleeve is an aluminium cup in which the duplex detonator is placed. A spring keeps this assembly in it’s forward position. A rubber O-ring around the detonator and the inside of the piston sleeve prevents the fluid (B) from leaking away. A sterilizer capsule (C ) is placed in the mine body. This exists of an aluminium cup with a spring loaded sterilisation tablet, kept in place by a disolvable cover.

    After release from the CDU-2/B Cluster adepter, the arming tab is released (03), enabeling the arming piston retainer (01) to fall out. This enables the spring to move the piston with the sleeve downward, thereby enabeling the sensitizer fluid (B) to mix with the main charge fluid (A) to form the explosive mix. The fuze and the main charge now form one space filled with liquid. If pressure is applied to the mine body, the hydraulic pressure will push down the aluminium cup with the duplex detonator and the connnected release sleeve, riding it’s spring downward. This enables the two balls to move outward and release the firing pin, exploding the mine.
    The mixing of fluids A & B also enables the sensitizer fluid (A) to start to dissolve the dissolvable cover of the sterilisation tablet. If after activation of the mine it is not stepped upon after a certain time, the spring will push the sterilisation tablet (C ) through the weakened dissolvable cover, forming a chemical self- neutralisation system. However, this does not render inert the duplex detonator.

    The main difference between the BLU-43B and BLU-44B is in the chemical proces of neutralisation.
    The mine weighs 90 grams.
    The mine is activated if 7 kg of pressure is applied.
    The mine can be found in the colours olive drab, tan, brown, camouflaged or white. An inert Dummy model of the mine is also available.
    The transport safety (02) was removed only after the mine was loaded into the CDU-2/B Cluster adepter.

    The Sowjet union made a copy of this BLU mine, the PFM-1. However this mine is larger than the BLU-43B or BLU-44 A/B.

    Regards DJH
    Dear pzgr40,
    Once again you excel yourself. The two items that are not mentioned in the patent are the "Arming Piston Retainer" and the "Spring Retainer". Presumably the movement of the piston that allows one component to mix with the other is slowed by viscous drag, so that it still has not completed its full stroke before ground impact. Thus the transient pressure spike that then occurs will not release the striker, due to the spring lock being active. Am I on the right track?
    V.I that Popov (Must be the only Designer to feature his designs on his Face Book) chose not to use a Binary Mixture-Perhaps he was worried about Patent Infringement!?

    Regards,
    MTC.
    Last edited by Sprockets; 28th February 2011 at 11:16 PM.

  3. #23
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    I suppose you mean the ring that is pointed out by the red arrow with the arming piston retainer? It is hardly visable in my cutaway model I must admit.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Looking for / Suche noch:
    -8,8cm Pzgr.40.
    -8,8cm D (drahtsperre)

  4. #24
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    OK time for new facts, the recent;y released USAF data base on all muntions used, locations, numbers etc during the VN war, show the Dragon tooth was a limtied use submuntions, in fact it appears not more then 100,000 of them were ever deployed.

    As for a RT to leave behind, another SpecOps war story Dragons Teeth were strickly air dropped. And as for the gravel mines being left behind to slow the enemy - sorry the facts do not support this, especially when you release how they function and there is no way to determine or control arming time. Yes I have seen the vid with soldiers taking the gravel mines out and placing them for a show and tell. The vid was made at ft Benning (after a sh** load of searching) for an Officer Basic/Advanced show and tell - though not very clear the DoD Explosive Safety Board of accidents takes about a classifed mine taking off an instructors hand at Benning about the same tie the vid was made (am still searching for the actual report. I may have one of the largest folders on gravel mines, plus I was disposed of a load of them during the Suez canal clearance.

    Igloo White was first a sensor mission, but it did grow (under various other names) into an interdiction mission of the HoChiMinh trail.

    I have also interveiwed a number of A1E pilots (5 in total) plus a dozen navy munitions loaders for the A1E, none ever remember or even heard of laying gravel mines to help stop pursuing enemy - each said the same thing - "we had no way of knowing how soon the damn things would arm, the NVA could have past right over them and not even got a scratch if they weren't armed' then there was the question of now many dispenser loads would it take and could we place them in just the right place?

  5. #25
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    I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying about the "Gravel" mines. I was not saying that they were left by RT members as though they had them in their pockets. I was talking about "Slow" and "Fast" movers/Zoomies, airplanes that were able to drop the gravel mines. It HAS been done before to slow down the enemy's progress in chasing you and to give you a running chance before they can incircle your Team. You are talking about something totally diffeent than what I had stated. You are refering to "Dragons Teeth" and I was referring to "Gravel" mines.

    As far as you talking to 5 pilots of A1E drivers in total, did you happen to have asked them if they ever flew sorties across the border(s) into say North Vietnam? Did they call themselves S.P.A.F's or Spads? Did they confirm to you that they did participate in supporting rescues and/or Recon Teams in trouble across the fence? Let me know what you comeback with?

    NOTE: Also, if by chance that I did not give you an answer on the grenade launchers and the M16A1 & M-14 thread or something simular, I am not sure if I replied to your answer or in your questioning about not believing about rifle grenades on the end of the M-14 and/or the M16A1's. If not, here are the facts on that one. The Marine Corp and the Army initally did use the M-14 with the M-76 launcher on the end to fire the M19A1's and any other grenades with the help of Chemical and Hand Grenade attachment/holders and any other Rile Grenade that had an inside diameter of 22mm.

    The M16A1 was used by SOG to launch an M34 in a grenade holder. I have proof, and what can you show me to the fact(s) that it couldn't? There were definately GLB's back then for both weapons.

    The article written by Mr. Corrett is an Ok article on the sensors that were either air dropped or were placed by hand there for a particular site. The article looks at the subject of "Sensors" from a U.S.A.F view and not from the veiw of the Army SpecOps community.

    The operation "Igloo White" was a indeed about sensors being placed along the networks of the "Truong Son Route" (The true name of the Trail used by the North Vietnamese) We called it the "Ho Chi Minh Trail" for convenience. This was thought out by Mr. Robert McNamara and his wizz kids. He thought that he could keep the NVA from coming down the 17th parralell, therby stopping the advace from Hanoi and it's "Unification" (Ya right!) of the two countries. What McNamara and his number of freaky friends who were mathmaticians at best, where trying to decide by numbers that the War was winnable. This is the start of the determination of a battle was won or lost; Body Counts, that is all they wanted to hear about. I have a drawing somewhere here that shows what a section would look like. What Mcnamara failed to realize is tat there is these two countries called Cambodia and Laos that were on the borders of South Vietnam and the North. These were considered to be countries of neutrality. Nobody was to set forth in these two countries especially with any kind of equimpment including weapons. Well, we all knew what happened there.

    Back to the sensor programs. "Igloo White" was a part of McNamara's line B.S. The sensors were divided into Air Dropped or placed by hand. Two actual ways of getting any sensor to its target. There was one example I remember reading in which a SOG RT was talked to by a high ranking C.I.A. official. He wanted this Team to guide him deep into Loas. He didn't tell what the mission was exactly. But he did give the Team an idea of what they were about to do. He, the CIA Man told them that he needed to get to a certain area inside of Laos. He was carrying a sensor that was brand new and had to be placed along this part of the Trail. The sensor was completely classified then and I am not sure if it is today. This was sometime in 1970. This is just an example of a hand laid sensor mission.

    As far as Air Dropped we have boat loads of info on what type of airplanes were used for certain sensors. Helicopters also participated in sensor placements. Normally the hellicopter was much more accurate in placement as they have the ability to hover in place.
    Last edited by V40; 24th March 2011 at 07:00 AM.

  6. #26
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    Igloo white was just one of the Phases of the Program and Handsid was a very small part of IGLOO WHITE
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" - Thomas Jefferson

  7. #27
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    with great eyes on my face, I have to retrack and regreate the M34 posting I made, for what ever the reason I got lost in another greande question, but remembered when I was in VN and we tried to use soem old rifle grenades with our M16's, I remember the M34 didn't travel so far and we had to keep it at an angle between 15 and 45 degrees, some shots at 45 degree resulted in air burst, but the shooting a 27 oz, almost 1.5 lb grenade from a 16 was pretty much a chore, needed a pretty heavy cart to launch it. I went back into my pubs and see that the M1A adapter can be used and the newer carts are authorized. Hoowever I can't find anyone who ever tried shooting the 34 other then a few tests in VN. I do have a test report writen by the Army Small Arms Board with tests completed in Utah and Fla testing 8 different RGs fromt he M-16, pretty interesting reading was written in 1965. There are a number on this site that have known me for several years, some were even my students at the EODS when it was at IH, MD - they know this is not the type of error I would normally make - so sorry. and I thank my many friends PMs on this subjet I thank you Am trying to figure out how to post the SEA Air Ops data base to this site but can't seem to figure it out. This data base shows the type of AC, the locations of drops (by grid cood), the which mission was used and BDA for each. The database is being used to help clean up UXOs in VN and Laos. FYI the A1 pilots I taked with at Hulbert field all flew missions in Laos in support of SOG and my SOG library was started over 30 years ago, so I got plenty of books, TMs, STs, etc on that.

  8. #28
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    The program was huge and had many working parts not just with aircraft, Artillery, SF. Many thousands of air dropped sensors were deployed mainly by fast movers into infested areas.
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" - Thomas Jefferson

  9. #29
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    Mike,

    Write a PM to Bolo, the BOCN Computer wizard about how to handle your database, and if it is possible to somehow post on BOCN.
    ___HAZ/
    _____/ORD Hazardous Ordnance Recognition
    ________Saving Lives Through Education

  10. #30
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    There are allot of SOG books out there. I have been collecting them since the 1970's. Now that the classification on SOG with few exceptions have been downgraded to "Public Release". I do know for sure, however, that it was at one time classified "Top Secret, NOFORN LIMDIS" with that info. How many books do have on "MACVSOG"? Just curious to know how many books you have on MACVSOG and what some of their titles are. I can always add those to what I already have. What TM's might you have also relating to SOG? Do you happen to have any AAR's in regards to Teams going out and coming back?

    Any additional info you might be able to share about SOG is greatly appreciative. I have a few friends who ran recon in Laos, North Vietnam, Cambodia, and some southern provinces of China and other locations that I know about. Do you have anybody that you know of who actually ran recon?any friends that ran recon too?

    Basically, IMHO, you may want to brush up on your MACVSOG Knowledge a little bit. I am still not sure about your background and how it relates to SOG? If you want to see the 34 being shot off of a M16A1 then go to this website and look for those pages here: www.onetao.com. Can you tell me what squadrons these airmen belonged to when flying for SOG Teams so I can make sure they were not lying to you? I guess what I am trying to say here is (and please do not be offended by this statement) if you or anybody else here on this website really knows anything of significance with MACVSOG?
    Last edited by V40; 25th March 2011 at 02:55 AM.

 

 
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