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57 x 222 query

Can you post images of these --

We are learning a lot !

Some time ago there was an image of one of these guns with canister on a fortress mount in line on a thread some place, in the Gun section perhaps. Found it.

The Gun with the Russian breech was taken out an A7V, but that would not effect the arming of captured tanks and would help keep them the same.
 

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The Germans captured a great many of the Belgian Mfg Nordenfelt guns along with great stores of ammunition. The only three types of shells known to me for this gun are Canister, Base fuzed common and a point fuzed segment shell. The great majority of ammo captured was canister, as these guns were used in forts to sweep the open ground in the event of an infantry breakthrough. In 1916 the Germans rebuilt these guns with a recoil system and mounted them on flat bed trucks for use as anti-tank weapons. At this time, three types of ammunition were designed and Mfg by the Germans. There was a new canister design (I have not ever seen one of these, just a drawing in a manual), a point fuzed HE, to take the place of the black powder filled Belgian Ammo and an internal fuzed APHE for use against tanks (presumably the British MkIV's) The APHE was copied from a Naval design as was the one made also for the 77mm gun. With the HE filling, these had the power to disable or destroy a tank at 2000 meters. The Germans also made and headstamped their own cases. The Belgian guns were used in the AT role and in the A7V Tank, but the next batch of captured guns from Russia went into replacing the 6 pr guns on captured British tanks. The projectiles from the Belgian/Nordenfelt guns are quite differrent from 6Pr projectiles and were not inter changeable (to the best of my knowledge). The information given at the beginning of this thread of a Shrapnel projectile for this gun is interesting. I have never heard of this before and have not seen one. The Austrian headstamp shown is also new to me. I have a Russian Headstamped canister, both types of the German HE and APHE, a Nordenfelt canister and Nose fuzed common and three types of Belgian ammo, canister, segment shell and base fuzed common. Would dearly love to see a shrapnel projectile if any of our friends from faraway have one in their collections.......Oh, one other interesting thing about these guns, my German headstamped cases all predate the first use of British tanks on the Somme in November of 1916. They are dated April, May and June of 1916. Seems the Germans may have had some warning of the new secret weapon after all.....

Thanks for the interesting write up frizzen, would you mind posting some photographs of the rounds you refer to please?
Thanks, Dave.
 
Hey all,

The German APHE round was called "5,7 cm Gr m Pz-Kpf", in Full German that would be: 5,7 cm Granate mit Panzerkopf, which would translate to: 5,7 cm shell with armour piercing head.

This was basically a (modified HE ?) shell body fitted with an internal impact fuze which was topped with a solid metal cap, the Pz-Kpf/AP head.
(not sure on the material of this cap, but recall reading it may have come in several different metals).

The ECRA bulletin had a small article on this projectile some time ago

greetz,

Menno.
 
The Germans captured a great many of the Belgian Mfg Nordenfelt guns along with great stores of ammunition. The only three types of shells known to me for this gun are Canister, Base fuzed common and a point fuzed segment shell. The great majority of ammo captured was canister, as these guns were used in forts to sweep the open ground in the event of an infantry breakthrough. In 1916 the Germans rebuilt these guns with a recoil system and mounted them on flat bed trucks for use as anti-tank weapons. At this time, three types of ammunition were designed and Mfg by the Germans. There was a new canister design (I have not ever seen one of these, just a drawing in a manual), a point fuzed HE, to take the place of the black powder filled Belgian Ammo and an internal fuzed APHE for use against tanks (presumably the British MkIV's) The APHE was copied from a Naval design as was the one made also for the 77mm gun. With the HE filling, these had the power to disable or destroy a tank at 2000 meters. The Germans also made and headstamped their own cases. The Belgian guns were used in the AT role and in the A7V Tank, but the next batch of captured guns from Russia went into replacing the 6 pr guns on captured British tanks. The projectiles from the Belgian/Nordenfelt guns are quite differrent from 6Pr projectiles and were not inter changeable (to the best of my knowledge). The information given at the beginning of this thread of a Shrapnel projectile for this gun is interesting. I have never heard of this before and have not seen one. The Austrian headstamp shown is also new to me. I have a Russian Headstamped canister, both types of the German HE and APHE, a Nordenfelt canister and Nose fuzed common and three types of Belgian ammo, canister, segment shell and base fuzed common. Would dearly love to see a shrapnel projectile if any of our friends from faraway have one in their collections.......Oh, one other interesting thing about these guns, my German headstamped cases all predate the first use of British tanks on the Somme in November of 1916. They are dated April, May and June of 1916. Seems the Germans may have had some warning of the new secret weapon after all.....

Thanks for e mailing me the photos of your rounds Frizzen hopefully they will attach for me OK. REALLY nice rounds.
Dave.
 

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So to be clear ;

These are the German made projectiles for the A7V and Truck mounted cannon.
 

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57 x 224

Yes, all are of German Mfg, HE with brass fuze, HE with pot metal fuze and Internal fuzed APHE with delay......
 
Hey all,

I must correct myself,

It wasn't the ''Panzerkopf'' of the ''5,7 cm Gr. m. P.'' that came in three materials, it was the "innenzuender mit verzoegerung fuer 7,7 cm K. Gr 15 m. P." that was known in Aluminum, zinc and brass.

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/36784-IZ-m.V.-f.-K.Gr.m.P?highlight=panzerkopf

Greetz,

Menno.

P.s. I am still looking for both the 5,7 and 7,7 cm ''Panzerkopf'' rounds for my collection, iff anyone ha one for trade/sale, please drop me a line.
 
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Can anyone shed any light on this one please......... there are no headstamps present as you can see from the photo.

regards Kev

P4240449.jpgP4240450.jpg
 
What's the case length Kev? It looks like a Belgian (or Nordenfelt) 57mm x 225mm R 70mm.

Thanks for your reply, the dimensions you give appear to fit the case.......though I dont have the means to measure it to the exact mm it appears more like 224mm in length ??
Is it usual for these Belgian cases to have no headstamp?


regards Kev
 
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Thanks for your reply, the dimensions you give appear to fit the case.......though I dont have the means to measure it to the exact mm it appears more like 224mm in length ??
Is it usual for these Belgian cases to have no headstamp?


regards Kev

It is unusual to find no stamping on the case, but it is possible they have been polished off. There look to be some worn indentations at 12 o/c in your picture which might also account for the one mm difference.

D
 
It is unusual to find no stamping on the case, but it is possible they have been polished off. There look to be some worn indentations at 12 o/c in your picture which might also account for the one mm difference.

D

That could well explain it..........thanks for your help

regards Kev
 
Does anybody have a drawing of the powdercharege and eventual spacers in the cannister shot?
Thanks in advance,
Regards, DJH
 
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