Improvisation???

[US-Subs]

I have dug through the Aberdeen Museum over the last 3 years and seen almost all of their ordnance, if they still have it I'm not sure where. I didn't see it. I will look through my stuff as well as see what I can dig up, maybe we did catalog it and I missed it.


Joe

Shortly after Picatinny closed and things were boxed up - initially to be moved to Pueblo Depot, I was sent photos on three occassions of items which had just been purchased by private collectors. I am nearly certain that these came from the collection. In each case they were items that I had seen only at Picatinny (in 30 years of very active ordnance research), and in which the photos very closely matched the items I had photographed at the museum. So the fact that you have not seen cool historical items that might have high collector interest - sad but not surprising. The same thing is happening at the EOD schools in the US and the UK as we speak, and has been for a couple of years now.

 

[Grenademan2005]

NICE! In that pic there are some Spanish grenades and the rare Italian SCRM practice with smoke.

 

[EODGUY]

All of this is exactly why I will never donate anything from my collection to a museum. I too have been connected to both the Picatinny and Aberdeen museums and the HP White reference collection over the years. The word "museum" does not mean permanent retention. Museums, especially military ones in the US, are famous for reducing their stocks by disposal methods. Although donating to a museum is an admirable goal, I would rather see my items in the hands of collectors who would not dispose of things when they run low on room or are told by the military to move out of a building they store excess material in. I have seen it happen all to often. A couple of the items on my collection I picked off a trash pile in Aberdeen that I know came from the museum. Now they are still a part of ordnance history instead of a pile of rust in a landfill. Bob

 

[Grenademan2005]

Bob, what are you saying is a very serious thing. You are saying that what is supposed to be a "Museum" is owned by people who have no idea of what is a Museum.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

What does it means? A robbery?

I don't think US-Subs said robbery Miguel, I think he said "Looted"


Robbery is crime of stealing with the use of violence and intimidation.


Looting is to steal valuables. and is the indiscriminate taking of goods by force as part of a military or political victory, or during a catastrophe or riot, such as during a war or natural disaster. The proceeds of all this "looting" can be described as loot, plunder, or pillage.

 

[Grenademan2005]

You have too much free time Steve, different words same results.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

You have too much free time Steve, different words same results.

I was just trying to help you, and answer your question Miguel.

Don't be jealous.....someday you will have free time also.

 

[ordman]

Take a look at the second rocket down
In grenademan2005 post
Looks like we found the missing duck
Finned version but looks pretty athentic to me
wonder how the second pin worked?

 

[US-Subs]

Bob, what are you saying is a very serious thing. You are saying that what is supposed to be a "Museum" is owned by people who have no idea of what is a Museum.

In the case of Aberdeen, I've spoken directly with the people involved at the time, it was suspected that an individual working in the museum was working with an outsider, stealing things from the storage area which were later auctioned off to collectors. Very nice, very expensive items that were hioghly sought after by collectors. By the time Aberdeen realized that there was a problem, hundreds and hundreds of items were gone. Also gone were the records that they had ever existed, necessary to prove the theft. They went from a warehouse full of treasures to a cramped room, and no one was charged with the crime.

Bob, while I completely agree with your thoughts on your collection, I would argue that in my experience, 99% of the people at these museums believe truly in what they do. Unless things have dramatically changed, the military museums (and EOD schools) cannot legally release materials to the outside. It is only even rarely, under exceptional circumstance, that they can turn something over to property disposal. This, I have been informed, is also the same in the UK. So when you hear someone saying that they traded for it....... The US military system (museum and schoolhouse) has no mechanism for trading, except for museum to museum. They call it theft.

 

[EODGUY]

My comments really were not addressing museum employees not being dedicated or even about theft, because that is something that you may or may not be able to control. With the exception of one staff member, those connected with the museums I have dealt with have been very dedicated. My concern is the official disposal of museum assets. Admittedly, I have not worked with any of the major museums in several years, but I have worked with the late Ed Ezell at the Smithsonian, the late Harry Bullock at Picatinny and the late Karl Kempf at Aberdeen. I had access to all of the museum records, stores and displays in all locations. In every case I would notice things that I saw at one time were not there at another. When I asked, the invariable answer was that they were directed to clear out some of their stocks. In some cases they contacted other museums and there was no interest in the item. In such cases the items were destroyed or trashed. In some cases there was no attempt to contact because pressure was put to bear to clear the inventory in such a rapid manner they had no choice but to destroy. I would imagine that private museums would take a different approach, but at the same time most private museums have little or no interest in ordnance. A government museum is the first thing on any post, camp or station to feel the pinch of funding and space cutbacks. When a post feels they need more room for something and the museum has one or two buildings filled with stored items, they are ordered to give up a building. I've seen it happen at both Picatinny and Aberdeen. The lowly little museum staff has little or no recourse, but to comply. I am sure there are a lot of very dedicated and professional museums and staffs out there, but I would much rather my collection items be in the hands of collectors who will appreciate them and perpetuate them in a more trustworthy manner than a museum.

 

[US-Subs]

I absolutely agree, and note that this was why Picatinny was closed. The Base would not allocate funds to support, the buildings were not in decent enough repair to protect the items, and the Military Museum Board ordered the museum closed. My understanding of the process, however, was that the museums have no authority to release items. In the case of Picatinny everything was slotted to be moved to long term stoarage at the military museum storage location at Pueblo Depot. Likewise, I did a lot of volunteer time with the Artillery Museum at Ft. Sill, sorting out issues with their ordnance storage and such, there they had actual "junk" which had been donated, once it had been accepted it was in the system and they had no easy way to legally dispose of it.

I fully understand that in nearly every case donating to a museum is a lost cause, they are targets for theft and suffer from mismanagement, lack of funds - all you have said and more. It's extremely sad, as movement of items to private hands most often means that the history is lost, or at least hidden from view to most people interested in research. forums like this help, but how many "silent" members - or non members, have key pieces of the puzzle locked away in their basement, never to be seen till their death and the brief flurry of auction interest - ie the death a year ago of a key Japanese collector. Where are those rare items now, and how to research them?

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just sad that it is so true -

 

[botcheg]

In the case of Aberdeen, I've spoken directly with the people involved at the time, it was suspected that an individual working in the museum was working with an outsider, stealing things from the storage area which were later auctioned off to collectors. Very nice, very expensive items that were hioghly sought after by collectors. By the time Aberdeen realized that there was a problem, hundreds and hundreds of items were gone. Also gone were the records that they had ever existed, necessary to prove the theft. They went from a warehouse full of treasures to a cramped room, and no one was charged with the crime.

Bob, while I completely agree with your thoughts on your collection, I would argue that in my experience, 99% of the people at these museums believe truly in what they do. Unless things have dramatically changed, the military museums (and EOD schools) cannot legally release materials to the outside. It is only even rarely, under exceptional circumstance, that they can turn something over to property disposal. This, I have been informed, is also the same in the UK. So when you hear someone saying that they traded for it....... The US military system (museum and schoolhouse) has no mechanism for trading, except for museum to museum. They call it theft.

Back around 2000 to 2004 timeframe I was on the East Coast U.S. and visited a Military surplus store. In the window was a German rocket in it's wooden launch crate which I just had to get photos of. I found out much later after my second visit that it was a 15 cm Raketenscheingeschoss, a rocket used by the Germans during air raids to mimmick the bombing signals dropped by the British pathfinders causing the bombers to bomb off target. The owner of the shop said he had gotten it from a collector that had bought it from Aberdeen Museum. Makes you wonder.
Bill

 

[Grenademan2005]

Militaria items means collecting, collecting means money, money means always will be bad people trying to get it, Im quite sure that most of the items are not distroyed, people who works at a museum know very well the stuff and the value.