Japanese Type 1 Rheinmetall 37mm ammo

[genkideskan]

I have an article about Rheinmetal AA guns delivered and tested in Japan.
Might be the normal 37mm Flak 18 ammo. To that some 20mm could be seen at the photo.
Is there any japanese headstamped or marked 37mm or 20mm ammo known in collections?
Any idea what the shorter 20mm are?




.

[ogreve]

Hi,

I've never seen Japanese versions of the German 37x263B cases, and none of my sources makes any mention of it. I'm assuming these one are German, or else they'd be about the rarest Japanese items in existence.
The Japanese did copy the 37x250R PaK 36 calibre, and they called it the "Ra type" (stemming from the word 'rainmetaru', their phonetic pronunciation of the word 'Rheinmetall'). This is a rather uncommon calibre, but I do know of at least two collectors who have them in their collections.

As for the 2cm FlaK ones: alledgedly these were once manufactured in Japan too; rare as hell, the only two samples of it that I'm aware of are located in the Woodin collection. Two types are in that collection, both of them sectioned, and both came from Japan after WW2. These types are an HE one and an AP one. They have no projectile nor case markings. It is not 100% certain that these were indeed manufactured in Japan...

The above mentioned "Ra type" ammo as well as the two sectioned 2cm FlaK rounds can be seen in Ken Elks' excellent 2nd part on Japanese ammo.

As for the smaller 2cm rounds that are shown in the picture: these look kinda 20x110 HS-404 like, but that wouldn't make sense if they're German.... Any chance of seeing a bigger picture?

Cheers,
Olafo

[TonyE]

Could the shorter 20mm be Short Solothurn, either the normal 20x105B or the more unusual 20x 105?

Regards
TonyE

[Slick]

Hi,

I've never seen Japanese versions of the German 37x263B cases, and none of my sources makes any mention of it. I'm assuming these one are German, or else they'd be about the rarest Japanese items in existence.
The Japanese did copy the 37x250R PaK 36 calibre, and they called it the "Ra type" (stemming from the word 'rainmetaru', their phonetic pronunciation of the word 'Rheinmetall'). This is a rather uncommon calibre, but I do know of at least two collectors who have them in their collections.

As for the 2cm FlaK ones: alledgedly these were once manufactured in Japan too; rare as hell, the only two samples of it that I'm aware of are located in the Woodin collection. Two types are in that collection, both of them sectioned, and both came from Japan after WW2. These types are an HE one and an AP one. They have no projectile nor case markings. It is not 100% certain that these were indeed manufactured in Japan...

The above mentioned "Ra type" ammo as well as the two sectioned 2cm FlaK rounds can be seen in Ken Elks' excellent 2nd part on Japanese ammo.

As for the smaller 2cm rounds that are shown in the picture: these look kinda 20x110 HS-404 like, but that wouldn't make sense if they're German.... Any chance of seeing a bigger picture?

Cheers,
Olafo

Somebody here needs to consider writing(or co-writing: B'ville, Ozzie, hint hint) a book. These type clarifications are priceless.

Rick

[genkideskan]

Thanks a lot for the reply.
Iam sorry its an article about the gun - only this small pic about the ammo.
Ive seen the 37 x 250R in the old Carlisle collection, but wonder about these Flak rounds.

[EOD]

These here were delivered by Rheinmetall to Japan in small quantities - this is German ammunition. Late in 1944 the production blue prints also went to Japan but way too late to start local production.

[Hoeksel]

I was recently lucky enough to find a Japanese 37 mm Ra case and a FLAK18 Chinese export case!! I knew the Chinese export case existed, I never heard of the Japanese "PAK36" untill I had it ;-).

It seems that as long as you don't live in Australia or the USA Japanese ammo is hard to find, at least here in The Netherlands.

[genkideskan]

But the dutch has had some fights with the japanese army. There must be still a lot of stuff in the Indies or bringbacks from KNIL soldiers?

[ogreve]

Hi,

A further addition I forgot to mention yesterday, and which is of importance to correct the erroneous title of this thread:
The Japanese had actually TWO types of 37x250R ammunition; often the lengths of these are misquoted as being 251mm, 252mm or 254mm. In fact, they are both 250mm.

The cases are highly similar, yet there are small differences:
-The type 1 37x250R is for a tank gun and for an AT gun. The case has a more pronounced neck as the Ra type 37x250R. This case features a large primer. I have one incoming from the USA.
-The Ra type 37x250R is (as mentioned previously) the one based on the Rheinmetall design. This one has a much smaller primer, and much less of a neck.

Both type cases have pure IJA headstamps. Those seen by me were manufactured at Osaka. Also, both types of cases used a standard 37mm HE projectile, or a non-standard (slightly shorter than normal) APHE projectile.

Both types are well documented in Ken Elks' book, however, for some reason Ken omitted headstamp pictures of the primers.

Attached to this post are pictures of my 37x250R Type 1 casing (first two pictures) and Hoeksel's 37x250R Ra type casing (pictured along with the 'Chinese' 37x263B casing he mentioned). Note the differences in the necks and primers.

Regarding the assumption that there'd be many KNIL bring backs of Jap ammo: you'd be dissappointed. Japanese ammo is seen very little over here; so little, in fact, that I acquire about 90% of my stuff from Australia and the USA. The few items that can be had over here are typically repeated items of two of the major Dutch sellers. Surely you guys know who they are.

Cheers,
Olafo

[SG500]

Nice cases Olaf, must be difficult to find.

Dave.