What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Experimental .30",7.62mm....

smle2009

Well-Known Member
....and the box it came in.
Just got this 7.62x51 experimental round today,headstamped FA 52,with the original box it came in.
Need a bit of help with a couple of the codes on the box,the first refers to the case FAT1E3 and the other refers to the bullet FATE1.
I know the FA refers to Frankford so looking for info on the T1E3 and TE1,also the calibre title is .30, L.R. any ideas on L.R.?
Cheers
Tony
 

Attachments

  • PA080020.JPG
    PA080020.JPG
    64.8 KB · Views: 40
  • PA080019.JPG
    PA080019.JPG
    32.9 KB · Views: 40
  • PA080017.JPG
    PA080017.JPG
    42.5 KB · Views: 60
Just 'pulled' this one to make sure all was ok in the inert department and thought I should post a photo of the projectile,compared with a standard L2A2 on the right.

Tony
 
s**t,t*t,w**k and b*****ks!!! here be the photo
 

Attachments

  • PA080003.JPG
    PA080003.JPG
    73.3 KB · Views: 22
"LR" is indeed Light Rifle as jonnyc indicated. That was a descriptive used by Frankford Arsenal during development of the new cartridge since the goal was a rifle and cartridge lighter than the M1 Garand and Cal .30 (30-06).

FAT1E3 is the 51mm case, the final iteration.

The bullet is actually FAT21, which is the 147 grain BT, 10 ogive, steel core.

The cartridge is properly called the T65E4 which became the T104E2 which was the final prototype of the M59.

A nice box, very collectible.

Ray
 
Last edited:
Hi Ray And jonneyc,
Many thanks for all the info,very helpfull indeed.
Now trying to close a deal on a simular box,a T233 .30 from FA also,dated Aug 53.
You don't see them for ages then several turn up at the same time!! thats the nature of collecting I suppose!

All the best
Tony
 
Tony

A box of T233 would be a very good find. They are seldom encountered. As you probably know, the T233 (T65E5) is the prototype for the M80 and has a BT, 150 grain lead-core bullet.

Ray
 
Last edited:
Thanks Ray,
as you obviously know your 'stuff' with these experimental rounds do you have any info on the .30"(7.62x51)/.22",headstamped WCC 53,.30"-06/.22",headstamped FA 57 and I have an alloy.30"(7.62x47mm) no headstamp is this a T5? T65E1?.
I have only started collecting some U.S. experimental rounds recently so not that clued up on them and any info on them would be great,
Also have a .30"-06 triplex and .30"-06 teflon to find a bit more about.
I can post photos tomorrow if that would help,very bad light in here at night

All the best
Tony
 
Tony

The 7.62mm/22 was one of the Project SALVO/SCHV (Small Caliber High Velocity) experimentals and is commonly called the Cal 22 for Light Rifle or the 22 NATO. Although, the NATO moniker is really not entirely correct since the 7.62mm cartridge was not adopted until 1954.

The 22/30-06 was another Project SALVO cartridge. Both it and the Cal 22 for LR were loaded in simplex (one bullet) and duplex (two bullets).

The aluminum 7.62mm cartridges can be found in several different configurations, both US and commercial made. Only the details seperate them. Many are not headstamped so identifying them can be a chore.

The 30-06 Triplex is another SALVO cartridge. It also can be found in Duplex loading. Both come in either long neck or short neck versions.

The teflon coated (all green) Cal .30 was a short-lived experimental AP cartridge to try to reduce cook-offs in hot chambers and to ease extraction.

It sounds like you have a good start on collecting the experimentals although I should warn you that it's a lifetime job.

Ray
 
It was common practice during this timeframe for experimental ordnance to carry a "T" number, meaning "Test". Just about all Army developed items carried T numbers until a final design was reached and then an M number assigned to it. I have put together a list of "T" numbers on ordnance items over the years that is in small type and still covers over 70 pages and I know I am missing many of them. Frankford Arsenal generally preceeded their "T" number with the "FA". Today when an XM number is adopted as an M number it will carry the same nubmer forward and just drop the "X". During this period the letter designator and the number changed. According to my records it was the T104E1 that was adopted as the M59. The T104E1 and E2 no doubt existed at the same time in parallel testing and the E1 was adopted. It has a 150.5 grain bullet with either a cut groove cannelure for machinegunnuse or a knurled cannelure for rifle use. Nice box.
 
EODGUY

The T104E1 was on the FAT1E3 case and was loaded with the 7-ogive T11 bullet which was flat base 136 grain. It was loaded from 1949 until 1952. The T104E2 was loaded from 1953 until 1954. The M59 was adopted in 1955.

Colonel Frank Hackley published a couple of very good articles in past issues of the IAA JOURNAL that detailed the Ordnance numbering systems throughout the years. A must-have if you want to even begin to understand what they all mean.

Where can I get a copy of yours? Do you do email? I can send you copies of my notes also.

Ray
 
Last edited:
EODGUY

Here are the two T104 bullets. The 104E1 T11 on the left and the 104E2 T21 on the right.

Ray
t11bullet001.jpg
 
Wow thanks guys,
learnt more about them tonight than I have since I have had them.
I have one more that has had me stumped for a while,if I may, it is a 7.92mm(I think you refer to them as 8mm Mauser in the U.S) blank,if not experimental it is an oddball! it has an open neck sealed with a red disc as used to be the norm from the U.S.A,the neck is stepped down and the headstamp is WCC 57,I can post photos of this one as I am in the middle of recording my collection,apart from a 5.56mm XM196 tracer that is my lot(so far) of U.S. experimental rounds,all the rest are English,bar a alloy Swiss 7.5mm.
I do find experimental ammunition very intresting and well on the way down the slippery slope of collecting them.

Cheers
Tony
 

Attachments

  • 7.92mm necked down blank.JPG
    7.92mm necked down blank.JPG
    65.4 KB · Views: 17
  • 7.92mm necked down blank headstamp.JPG
    7.92mm necked down blank headstamp.JPG
    40.1 KB · Views: 10
That is a great box. I've never seen one with that particular label. Check out the velocity. 2800+ fps!

Are you sure that blank cartridge is not a Cal .30 (30-06)?

Ray
 
Hi Ray,
No it is 100% 7.92x57mm,unless of course it was a 30-06 re necked to 7.92mm?
photo's of blank with 7.92 Besa and 30-06(37NM) and with 30-06 blank for scale ect

All the best
Tony
 

Attachments

  • PA100006.JPG
    PA100006.JPG
    60.8 KB · Views: 13
  • PA100007.JPG
    PA100007.JPG
    60.3 KB · Views: 12
Last edited:
Top