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Correct term for WWII British Revolver Cartridge, .380" or ".38-200"?

TomcatPC

Member
Hello

I have been wondering about this question for a bit, this might seem like a dumb question but I had to ask anyway.

The question is about the .38" calibre WWII British Revolver Cartridge.

Of all the photos of actual WWII British and Commonwealth SAA Cartons that I have seen, the label clearly reads .380", also the same applies to the headstamps on the cartridges as well.

But, I see many people using the term ".38-200" to describe this cartridge. I am living in the United States and hear that term being used here the most, so I not certain if this is "American Collector Slang" or not?

I understand that the original .380" Mk. I Revolver Cartridge was a 200 grain lead bullet. So the term ".38-200" makes sense in practical terms, that much I understand.

I also understand that the version of the cartridge used during WWII and afterwards, the .380" Mk.II Revolver Cartridge had a 178 grain (I think?) Ball (aka "FMJ") Bullet instead of a 200 grain lead bullet. I hear some people use the term ".38-200" to describe that cartridge as well, even though it does not have a 200 grain bullet.

I tend to use the term .380" Revolver Cartridge. Am I correct or not, or is ".38-200" a "correct" term as well?
Thanks
Mark
 
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I call the cartridge the .38 S&W. What you call it is also correct, but I like to give credit to the Fine American company who first made the round.......
Smith & Wesson.

The .38 S&W is a revolver cartridge developed by Smith & Wesson in 1877. Though similar in name, it is not interchangeable with the later Smith & Wesson .38 Special cartridge due to a different and shorter case shape and slightly larger bullet diameter.

The British military adopted a loading of this cartridge as the Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkI 38-200 with the "200" referring to the weight of the lead bullet in grains. In 1937, this cartridge was replaced in British Service by the Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkII. The main difference between it and the previous round was that that it had a 178 grn. FMJ bullet.

 
British .380

Whilst the background of the British .380 round is as you say, the nomenclature you give is wrong. It never had "38-200" as part of the title nor was it known officially as that in British service.

The correct title was " Cartridge SA Revolver Ball .380 inch Mark I" when introduced (or Mark Iz if loaded with nitrocellulose).

I believe the term originated for the original S & W police load to identify the heavier than normal bullet.

Regards
TonyE
 
A .380" box lable to prove the point:wink:

Tony
 

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.38/200

Despite what TonyE says, there were some British-made cartridges that had ".38-200" in the headstamp. AFAIK, they all had the 200-grain lead bullet. I have in my collection a Kynoch-made box (empty, unfortunately) which has a label stating ".38/200 Revolver Cartridges". They would have been for commercial sale, rather than military. The military ones just had the usual military headstamp.

Roger.
 
38-200

Roger, I said it was not known as that in British service. i was not talking about commercial loadings.

Regards
TonyE
 
Hello

So by me using the term .380" (in referring to actual British Military Service nomenclature), I am correct in using .380"?

I have one Canadian made box for .380" Mk.IIz cartridges, that I posted on another website whilst in a online debate about the name of the cartridge and some people there said I was wrong, that the cartridge was called .38-200 and not .380", even though the box said .380" LOL.

Thanks, been wondering about this for a bit, and just now had the guts to ask.
Mark

P.S. Is the .380" Mk. II or Mk. IIz Cartridge difficult to locate (either live or inert) in the United States?
 
Whilst the background of the British .380 round is as you say, the nomenclature you give is wrong. It never had "38-200" as part of the title nor was it known officially as that in British service.

The correct title was " Cartridge SA Revolver Ball .380 inch Mark I" when introduced (or Mark Iz if loaded with nitrocellulose).

I believe the term originated for the original S & W police load to identify the heavier than normal bullet.

Regards
TonyE




Hi Tony, OK, thank you, my post stands corrected. I copied and pasted that info to try to help answer the question. I maybe should have read it a little closer, or waited for the experts like yourself and others to answer.
Although, it's still the .38 S&W to me, no matter what other names it has. :tinysmile_twink_t2:

This thread has reminded me I actually need a nice box of British WW2 dated ammo to go with the Albion Enfield pistol I have.
Here's a few photos of the revolver that shoots the ammo that's been discussed here. It's my only British WW2 (Scottish actually) gun in my collection, and one of my favorite's.

P.S. Is the .380" Mk. II or Mk. IIz Cartridge difficult to locate (either live or inert) in the United States?

Hi Mark, I'll let you know, I'm going to look for a WW2 dated box of bullets. I think I've seen them a few times on Gunbroker before. Years ago they were easy to find, not anymore like all WW2 ammo here in the US.
 

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.38

...and here are a couple of pictures of the ammo. First the .380 ball Mark I and Drill D Mark I, second a selection of ball Mark II, Drill D mark II, Inspectors U Mark I and blank L Mark IT.

Nice pistol by the way, especially as it is an Albion.

Regards
TonyE
 

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Didn't the MkI end production in 1937? could be why WWII dated MkI .380" are hard to find:eek:oh:

Tony
 
...and here are a couple of pictures of the ammo. First the .380 ball Mark I and Drill D Mark I, second a selection of ball Mark II, Drill D mark II, Inspectors U Mark I and blank L Mark IT.

Nice pistol by the way, especially as it is an Albion.

Regards
TonyE


Thanks Tony, Albion Enfield pistols are an interesting variation, thought it would be appropriate to show in this thread.

Nice selection of bullets! thanks for showing them all. Never seen a blank or drill round before. A nice addition to the thread also!! :congrats:
 
Hello

Thanks for the photos and information.

I think that may be the first time I have seen a photo of a .380in Mk.I Cartridge. I have heard about them, but never seen one for real.

I think that after Christmas I will start looking for .380in cartridges at some gunshows that I go to. This is not life or death, but I'd like to at least have one WWII .380in Mk.II Round. I have an empty Canadian Made cartridge box, finding 12 rounds of Canadian made .380in Mk.II could be another long term goal LOL. Not that it will be of any value since it is not original LOL.

Once we get our computer sorted out, I'll fire off a photo of my two .380in revolvers I have. One is a WWII S&W M&P "Victory Model" and the other is a post-WWII Singapore Police Contract Webley & Scott Mk.IV revolver.
Thanks
Mark
 
Hello

Thanks for the photos and information.

I think that may be the first time I have seen a photo of a .380in Mk.I Cartridge. I have heard about them, but never seen one for real.

I think that after Christmas I will start looking for .380in cartridges at some gunshows that I go to. This is not life or death, but I'd like to at least have one WWII .380in Mk.II Round. I have an empty Canadian Made cartridge box, finding 12 rounds of Canadian made .380in Mk.II could be another long term goal LOL. Not that it will be of any value since it is not original LOL.

Once we get our computer sorted out, I'll fire off a photo of my two .380in revolvers I have. One is a WWII S&W M&P "Victory Model" and the other is a post-WWII Singapore Police Contract Webley & Scott Mk.IV revolver.
Thanks
Mark


Hi Mark, sounds like you have a couple nice revolvers. I also have a S&W Victory model, but it's a 4" barrel in .38 Special cal, not the British lend-lease .38 S&W Victory with 5" barrel.
Some collectors used to frown upon the British lend-lease revolvers, but not me, I'd love to have a nice example, just never got around to finding a nice one.
There getting hard to find these days in original condition.

Look forward to seeing some pics, and good luck on the hunt for some WW2 ammo.
 
It might be a bit before I can post some photos. The computer I'm using right now is on the verge of dying and we don't have a replacement yet. I'm hoping some though. God-willing shortly after Christmas.

As for my .380" S&W M&P Revolver, the finish is not the best. But...thankfully it is still in the original .380" calibre and not a .38 Special "conversion". Mechanically, it is in good shape, really good shooter, just don't get to fire it nearly as much as I'd like to LOL. It is perfect for putting on displays when I attend WWII Reenacting events, as it is in original shape, but not "perfect" where I'd not want to take it outside LOL.

As for owning a .38 S&W Special Cal. US version of the S&W "Victory Model"...I can't wait to find one. It might take a while to find a good deal, seeing as money is a bit skint now, but I'm hoping one will come my way sooner or later.

The motivating factor for me finding one?...my Dad was US Navy aircrew in the Pacific Theatre during the War. He carried one as a gunner in a TBM Avenger.
Mark
 
Hello Mark,
Here are a couple of pictures of my old Webley which I used to enjoy shooting before the ban, now sadly de-activated. It was made during WW2 when they were needed in a hurry which is why it does not have the usual fine finish that Webley produced, hence the 'War Finish' stamp on the frame.
As for ammo, I always called the rounds shown as 38/200, but when using the 128gn bullet I called them 38 S+W ! However Tony E is the expert and his answer tells the correct nomenclature.
Cheers,
Guy.
 

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This thread has reminded me I actually need a nice box of British WW2 dated ammo to go with the Albion Enfield pistol I have.
Here's a few photos of the revolver that shoots the ammo that's been discussed here. It's my only British WW2 (Scottish actually) gun in my collection, and one of my favorite's.
Again, a point of correction. It's a revolver No2, Mk1** and either an Enfield OR an Albion. It's a bit like saying a Ford Willys Jeep, it can't be both!

Here's my Albion, it's a No2, Mk1*, and also some Australian WW2 ammunition plainly marked ".380 Inch MkII"
 

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Australian .380

A nice label. I like the alteration of the manufacturer from MQ to MG. I have examples from both factories in my collection. Did MF ever make it?

Regards
TonyE
 
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A nice label. I like the alteration of the manufacturer from MQ to MG. I have examples from both factories in my collection. Did MF ever make it?

Regards
TonyE
I've not seen any MF .380, but I understand MF made .455 pre-war.

MQ was the Rocklea, Queensland factory and produced the bulk of WW2 pistol ammn production in .380 and .455, but no 9mm.

MF was Footscray No1 Factory, Victoria and was the only factory to make 9mm, but was also involved in production of most other calibres.

MG was Footscray No2 Factory and made .303 and .380
 
Footscary

Thanks

Yes, I have several examples of MF manufactureed .455 inch revolver and also wartime .32 ACP. Post war they made .45ACP as well, although all the wartime .45 I have seen is MG.

Regards
TonyE
 
Again, a point of correction. It's a revolver No2, Mk1** and either an Enfield OR an Albion. It's a bit like saying a Ford Willys Jeep, it can't be both!

Here's my Albion, it's a No2, Mk1*, and also some Australian WW2 ammunition plainly marked ".380 Inch MkII"



Hi 303gunner, Very Nice Albion "Enfield" revolver you have, and you have so many GOOD condition boxes of ammo, very nice! I must find a box of ammo also sometime for my collection.

OK, so I'm a stupid Yank, :tinysmile_tongue_t: I left out the No.2MkI** I should have worded my post different, it should have said:

"here's my Albion Motors Co. "Enfield" No.2 MkI** revolver made under contract in Scotland during WW2, and is a copy of the RSAF Enfield's "borrowed" design "No.2MkI" revolvers.

I know what you are saying....., BUT the Albion is an "Enfield" revolver. It's a "copy" or "clone" of the "Enfield No.2MkI"....which is basically a "copy" or "clone" of the "Webley MkIV" revolver with just a few small internal and external differences. Webley even sued the British Gov. about the design, Captain Boys etc, you probably know the whole story.

I agree it's not an "Enfield" revolver made by the Royal Small Arms factory at "Enfield".... But here in U.S, these revolvers whether made by CG&T, Albion, Enfield or the rare HAC revolvers are sometimes just called "Enfield" or No.2 MkI revolvers.

Thank you for the corrections from my friends "down under" and "across the pond". I must learn to be more technical and proper when speaking of ammo & weapons from from the Kingdom. I will await the possible next corrections. :tinysmile_twink_t:
 
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